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Weird Loping on Cold Start Issue

4.2K views 17 replies 6 participants last post by  rwhite1  
#1 ·
Attached are 2 video's that show what is happening.

It will only happen on a cold start below about 10* if the truck has not been plugged in. Only the 1st start of the day. If the truck is plugged in or has been started and ran that day - starts and no issues with the loping/RPM.

I've replaced Camshaft Position Sensor and Crankshaft Position Senson ('99 has both) - with Cummins sensors. No change. Fuel pressure is good and no leaks.

Thoughts on what's causing this on a cold motor only?

https://youtu.be/OLp2qo51qG0

https://youtu.be/LJnUDrsQc1o
 
#2 ·
From what I saw in your video, it looked to me like your grid heater isnt working and that ice cold engine is struggling to run while ingesting freezing cold intake air. The volt gauge is certainly not moving appropriately either for a functioning grid system and white smoke like that is indicative of fuel not combusting due to lack of heat. :thumbsup:
 
#3 ·
:agree2:

Grids definitely not working
 
#4 ·
I'll check the elements themselves - I have a new grid heater relay and have power to the "lugs" on the intake horn but haven't ohmed the elements.

Grid heater hadn't crossed my mind yet though - even at 0 with older batteries it will catch in the first 1-2'ish seconds of cranking. And the relays are working - lights dim, fuel pressure drops, etc.

I'll ohm them out and see what happens.

Thanks.
 
#6 ·
Beauty of direct injection and Cummins. They start great pretty well all the time.

I cold started (-20f for a week) a M11 once that was running(firing) so slow I couldn't tell it was running, let off the start button and sat in amazement, could pretty well count the firing of each cylinder. Did have 0w30 in it for oil, probably helped a bunch.

Can't say the same for others.

Normally when winter hits there is a bunch of why are my headlights dimming threads. Totally normal operation caused by the grids cycling and drawing the voltage down
 
#5 ·
Last year my grids started acting up. Ended up being the short ground wire from the grids to the manifold had a bad connection which built up some corrosion within the crimp. Cut out about 1/2" of the line, re-crimped the end and voila. :thumbsup:
 
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#7 ·
I know the grids - but just assumed that b/c the voltmeter swings, lights dim, etc. - my grids were working. Didn't think about the element - still have to test it though.
 
#9 ·
I could only get the second video to play and didn't see the voltage swing. But you say they are cycling?
 
#8 ·
I believe there are two, so check both. Check connections on both heaters and relays with voltmeter when operating for juice to make them work. Make sure the horn is grounded well, especially if you have added any gaskets or sealant.
Also could be sucking air or an injector issue. Do you have old one you could put in for test?
 
#10 ·
In looking back at the voltmeter, it has two abnormalities. First it it going up a bit higher than normal for factory alt. Maybe OK but a bit high. Second it is not dropping as much as the grid heaters will normally take it down. Has the alt been tested for AC problems or any other AC symptoms. Try disconnecting the alt when it is doing it and see if it quits. Does it crank and start well?
 
#11 ·
AK - yes - grids appear to be cycling at least. Voltmeter swings, lights dim, my fuel pressure will go down and up with the voltmeter on initial starts. So the power is being pulled. But if the elements are toast, that power isn't doing me any good.

No AC test. I'll do this as well. Cranks and starts well - batteries are old and need replaced. Alternator is not OEM - is a Napa unit - 4/5 years old now I think. I'll try the disconnecting the alternator next time. And bigfish - I'll test both elements and triple check ground.

Last thing - after reading comments and re-watching vids - my voltmeter isn't swinging as much on a true cold start. After it's been driven/idles/etc. - on a restart the voltmeter swings more appropriately - down towards the 10'ish volts and will come up higher as well - a much more significant swing.

I'll update when I test, but it might be a couple days. Below zero and 30+ winds - drifts everywhere, including in front of the shop so I can't get in unless I shovel a couple hours.
 
#13 ·
The elements themselves will each either be working or broke, not much in between unless bad ground. Like a light bulb.
If the batteries weak, they must be replaced, could be the root of all evil. I have had about 4-6 Napa alts and tested several more. One not charging from the box. 2 bad charging within 2 years, several bad AC from the box and 4 with bad AC withing a year or two. Dealt with it again this week. Definitely test it for both ac and dc.
 
#14 ·
I live in a similar climate so I know what's normal, and I can tell from your voltage swing that only 1 of the 2 grid heating elements are working. The Voltmeter is only dropping about half as much as it should.

So track that issue down and fix it before moving on. I'm not sure if it will fix your lope or not, but it's the place to start.

The other thing is that you clearly need to change your power steering fluid, and that also makes me wonder if you are running heavy oil in this climate? It helps immensely to run Rotella T6 5w40, at least in the winter. The decreased drag on a cold engine might be your cure if it still acts up after fixing the grid heater.

I've had my truck do stuff like that on cold days when I was running 15w40 oil. It would get so bad I would have to shut the truck off and restart it to get it to fire evenly again. Switching to 5w40synth cured all of that.
 
#15 ·
Oh and one more thing, I just noticed in your sig that you have an exhaust brake, as do I. If your brake is engaged while warming up, try disabling it temporarily. It could also be that your brake is not opening fully.
 
#16 ·
I checked both elements - ohmed just a little bit of resistance - and would start glowing in about 10-12 seconds. Heat given off before that.

Relays are good - can manually activate relays and send power to the grid heater elements.

Same voltage at "top" side of relays from battery as at battery, fusible link is good.

I am with Spacehiker - only 1 of my elements was working prior to me diagnosing last night. I'd only get power to 1 element, not both. (measured at bolt head on intake manifold). One set of the ECM trigger wires were still on, but definitely looser on the posts. After checking everything, I tightened up the trigger wire contact points and then had power to both elements. We'll see how it does in the future - maybe I just had partial contact on the trigger wires.

Spacehiker - I've got and run year-round 5-40 oil. PS fluid is changed probably more than anyone else. It's only got about 6-8K miles on the fluid. Fluid is clear - I think part of the noise is I've got a PSC pump and Borgeson box - all higher pressure than stock.

And on the exhaust brake - I'll check movement - hadn't thought about that, but it seems to function as designed.


I still need to check AC noise. I'll do that this afternoon/evening after I've driven and warmed everything up for a while.
 
#17 ·
Beyond that then I would say injectors pop pressures or spray pattern. Possibly compression issues. I've had one truck with misfire issues that turned out to be a cracked piston. This engine happened to pass the blow by test but failed compression test. Something is lacking compression or fine atomized fuel.
 
#18 ·
Thank Mike - injectors "should" be good - new OEM from ebay - they have been pop-tested twice - both times, pass with flying colors - no more than 10K on them.

I've thought about compression test and issues - I'll probably check that when it warms up.

Other than this - truck runs fine, decent mileage, no issues.