That does not apply to your 5.9 but there are better lubes you could use.

 

Such as?? What is everyone using? Where I live I only have access to ULSD and I'm curious as to what people are using to treat it... Thanks again

 

That 2 cycle is low cost, I use about 1/2oz per gallon. For me, Engine is quieter with it, especially at start up. MPG about the same.
I ran the last 2 tanks without and there is quite a difference in noise...

 

When I had my '06, I ran 2SO, and found everything about the way it ran to be slightly better than before I started adding it. I only had to add about a pint to a full tank of fuel to notice a difference.

 

You can run 2 stroke oil just fine, I run about a pint per tank, sllllight mpg boost and quiets down the engine a bit.

 

im trying it!

iM GOING TO DO THE .5 OZ TCW3 IN MY 07 5.9 FOR THE FIRST TIME.... HOPE ALL GOES WELL... WISH ME LUCK!!!

 

I started using the super tech TCW-3 the last two fill ups and can definitely say it does quiet things down a bit. I was using the Lucas oil treatment but this is cheaper.

 

Dead horse, and a year old thread.

TCW3 is great stuff, B100 is better.

You can add a gallon of B100 to a fill-up for the same price (or less) than a gallon of fuel, and the lubricity is better than TCW3 and your exhaust will start smelling like french fries.

Assuming you can get B100 in the first place, which I cannot anymore (easily). B2-B3 is all you need to make the fuel have better lubricity than almost any amount of adding TCW3, and a *LOT* of #2 pumps are actually B5 now, even if they don't say it. Not everywhere, but there are a lot. Not easy to tell, though.

I do disagree with some of the suggestions as to how much TCW3 is required, though. Some folks say 1 oz per gallon, some folks say 2 oz per gallon, some folks say 0.5 oz per gallon. I think anywhere from 8-16 oz for a full tank is plenty sufficient.

 

there is a negative with the use of TC-W3 outboard oil in diesel.
It lowers cetane number which can affect winter cold crank start making cold crank starts harder and longer. generally below 0d F and lower

one of the reasons that #1 is added to engine diesel in the winter/colder temps is to raise cetane above 50 for reliable quicker starts.

 

Just curious how does 2 cycle lower cetane, other than the fact you are diluting the fuel a bit?

 

Steelhead, I started adding outboard oil to my truck about two months ago and I noticed that my truck took a couple seconds longer to start. She usually fires up in a second or two but now it takes 3-4 seconds, long enough for the starter squeak to start up. The last tank I didn't add it and I could tell that it began starting quicker.

Steelhead is always a step ahead of us!

 

I use the following fuel additives in my 2005 model:

Stanadyne fuel additive- recommended by my local dodge dealership mech

Schaeffee Oil - recommended by a local over the road truck repair shop, shop owner said the product helps lube the injectors.

i add some every 2 or 3 tank.
truck runs good and gets very good mpg.

 

...................

 

"""the Cetane rating will determine the ability of the diesel fuel to undergo vaporization in a smooth manner. A higher cetane rating will vaporize LESS readily, but has more BTU's per gallon than a lower cetane rating. Thus it's ability to give you more bang for the buck. BUT, high-cetane fuel's low vaporization qualities make it a terrible fuel, combustion wise, for cold temperatures, especially starting environments. """



http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/Changes_In_Diesel_Fuel.pdf

Results of Inadequate (Low) Cetane Number

Poor Ignition Quality
Long Ignition Delay
Abnormal Combustion
Abnormally High Combustion Pressure
Potential Uneven Thrust on Piston / Cylinder
Louder Engine Knock
Excessive Engine Knock & Smoke at Cold Start

Cetane number is a measure of the ignition
quality of the fuel. Cetane number affects combustion
roughness. Consumers often think the cetane
number is similar to the octane number for gasoline,
but that is not the case. Octane is a measure
of a spark ignition engine fuel’s (gasoline) ability to
resist engine knock (pre-ignition from compression).
Diesel cetane ratings work in the opposite
direction. The higher the cetane rating, the more
easily it ignites. Reaching desired cetane levels
also limits the aromatic content of diesel fuel.

Unfortunately, No. 1 diesel has a lower heating value
(lower btu content per gallon) than No. 2 diesel,
so this approach results in a fuel economy penalty
and power loss. As an example, a 50/50 blend of
No. 1 and No. 2 diesel may reduce fuel economy
by nearly 5 percent and result in a power loss of up
to 4 percent (see Figures 1-4 and 1-5) compared to
No. 2 diesel.

-----------
Fuel School

Cetane Rating is a measure of how quickly a fuel will auto-ignite under compression. In diesel engines sooner is generally better. The 40 rated we fuel we use makes cold starting much harder, creates clouds of white smoke until the engine warms, makes the engine very loud, and limits the performance characteristics of any engine it is used in.

Raising Cetane makes an engine easier to start (particularly in cold weather), allows it to warm up faster, makes it quieter, allows the engine timing to be advanced which makes the engine more efficient for better mileage, performance and lower emissions.

It is important to understand that refiners today are trying to obtain the highest yields of the most profitable products created during the refining process and do so while using the least expensive crudes that their refineries can process. The product streams (different products or product components) produced by a refinery can be adjusted or managed through the changes in the refining process and through the use of chemicals and catalysts to produce more or less of a given item. For example many refineries in the US are primarily interested in producing gasoline as it is usually the most profitable and highest volume product. In order to do this they may produce a diesel fuel with less desirable characteristics.

A refinery designed to produce high quality lubricants from crude with levels of paraffin wax may produce diesel with an unusually high wax content which in the summer is great (more wax equals more Btu’s), however in cold weather this fuel can be very difficult to use as it gells at a much higher temperature than normal fuel would.

In the US market most diesel and gasoline is called fungible which means it equivalent. Diesel and gasoline are produced to “Pipeline” spec so that fuel entering a pipeline as for example diesel #2 in any of the half dozen refineries in East Texas can be sold as Diesel #2 under any brand all the way up the East Coast of the US. The only thing that differentiates one brand from another is the additive package added during the loading of the truck that delivers it.

What this means is that refiners are trying to make the least expensive product possible that will still meet those very minimal fungible (pipeline) specs.

______________
most of the lubricity in diesel comes from the sulfur compounds. reduce sulfur =s lower lubricity =s more HPCR pump and injector wear.

many refiners and tank farm distributors spec a higher cetane rating for the raw #1 coming out of the refinery tap to save on cetane improver additives at the tanker fill rack and thus keep their profit margin higher in the winter fuel season. just a matter of crude oil refinery chemistry.

the sour heavy crudes coming into Texas refinerys from Venzuela and the Alaskan N Slope high sulfur high benzene heavy sour crudes refined on the West Coast produce some of the worse quality lowest performance diesels on the market.

__________________
look for Premium diesels
National Council of Weights and Measures

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...articles/39/1/Issue-55---Technical-Topics---Update-on-Premium-Diesel/Page1.html

Diesel fuels identified on retail dispensers, bills of lading, invoices, shipping papers, or other documentation with terms such as premium, super, supreme, plus, or premier, must conform to the following requirements:
- Cetane Number – A minimum Cetane number of 47.0 as determined by ASTM Standard Test Method D613
- Thermal Stability – A minimum reflectance measurement of 80% per ASTM D6468
- Low Temperature Operability – A cold flow performance measurement which meets the ASTM D975 tenth percentile minimum
- Lubricity – A maximum wear scar diameter of 520 microns per ASTM D6079.If a single test of more than 560 microns is determined, a second test shall be conducted.If the average of the two tests is more than 560 microns, the sample does not conform to the requirement.


___________________

there's some real cat piss out there being sold as diesel since there is NO Regulation of the diesel industry. some states test the pump output for accuracy but that's about it.
No amount of after fuel purchase additives are going to make cat piss diesel burn and run like a quality fuel should.

want quality diesel, go to EU refinerys. that's where China diesel distributors and many in the Middle and the Far East get their diesel shipped from. EU diesel sells at a buyer's premium on the world market. quality costs.

 

Man,... Thats a lot of great info!

 

I have been adding 2/3 oz to a gallon of diesel fuel since '06 when the ULSD started being sold. Extra lubricants need to be added to the fuel after the sulpher is removed. A little extra lub is better than not having enough if......

The engine has always started on the 3rd or 4th compression stroke.

It does quiten the cp3 tick.

I would use B10 if it was available in my area. I ran a tank of B10 when I was in Jackson, WY and the engine seemed to run smoother and just better.

 

I use a mix of Power Service Diesel Kleen mixed with either 2-cycle oil (.5 oz/gal) or biodiesel i make at 1 oz/gal. That combo really smooths out the engine. I loose a little fuel milage (around .5 mpg) but it keeps everything lubed. I would rather take care of my machine if i am only losing that little mpg.

 

I learned years ago that using 1oz per gallon in sub zero temps lowers fuel mileage by 1-2 mpg in my truck, through trial and error I found I could use 2 cycle oil in the winter and not lose fuel mileage but to do so I had to use 2 oz oz per gallon of Power Service or Howe's

 

pg 3 Chevron white paper

The cetane number (see page 4) of the fuel defines its ignition quality. It is believed that
fuels meeting the ASTM D 975 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils minimum
cetane number requirement of 40 provide adequate performance in modern diesel engines.
The minimum cetane number in Europe is 51. (See Chapter 5 – Diesel Fuel and Biodiesel
Fuel Specifications and Test Methods.) Some researchers claim that a number of modern
engines can benefit from a higher cetane number when starting in very cold climates.
Smoothness of operation, misfire, smoke emissions, noise, and ease of starting are all
dependent on the ignition quality of the fuel. At temperatures below freezing, starting
aids may be necessary regardless of the cetane number.

Test standard #1 #2
Cetane Number minimum, D 613 40 40

------------------------

US refinerys are required to ONLY output raw pipeline diesel (#1 or #2) to the minimum ASTM D 975 requirements. Some of the top line refinerys that have access to the higher quality crudes set the hydro cracker to output higher cetane base #1 and #2 diesels which they sell at a premium. see hydrocarbon types cetane chart below.
Hydrotreating is expensive to produce ULSD, thus the main production factor for many refinerys is only refine to 40 cetane to keep cost low.
ULSD refinery hydro treating also removes most of the parafin based hydrocarbons which contribute much of the cetane to refinery LS raw diesel

Most US diesels will run on 40 cetane but not an all engine all season fuel. Mercedes requires 51 cetane diesel to fulfill their warranty requirements for full service coverage

Are you guaranteed that every refinery outputs 40 cetane all the time?, NO.

Are you guaranteed that every retailer pays for expensive cetane additives at the tanker rack?, NO.

Is there any gov. cetane testing at the pump, NOT ANY LONGER. all states have dumped their diesel testing programs in cutbacks.

--------------
from Chevron article

Cetane Number
Cetane number also varies systematically with hydrocarbon structure (see Table 4.4).
Normal paraffins have high cetane numbers that increase with molecular weight.

see Table 4.4
Cetane Number of Representative Diesel Fuel Hydrocarbons
Hydrocarbon

Isoparaffins have a wide range of cetane numbers, from about 10 to 80. Molecules
with many short side chains have low cetane numbers; whereas those with one side
chain of four or more carbons have high cetane numbers.
Naphthenes generally have cetane numbers from 40 to 70. Higher molecular weight
molecules with one long side chain have high cetane numbers; lower molecular weight
molecules with short side chains have low cetane numbers.
Aromatics have cetane numbers ranging from zero to 60. A molecule with a single
aromatic ring with a long side chain will be in the upper part of this range; a molecule
with a single ring with several short side chains will be in the lower part. Molecules with
two or three aromatic rings fused together have cetane numbers below 20.

BLENDING
The diesel fuel produced by a refinery is a blend of all the appropriate available streams:
straight-run product, FCC light cycle oil, and hydrocracked gas oil. The straight-run diesel
may be acceptable as is, or may need minor upgrading for use in diesel fuel prepared for
off-road use. To meet the 15 ppm sulfur limit, all the streams used to prepare diesel fuel
need hydrotreating to lower the sulfur concentration.
The refiner must blend the available streams to meet all performance, regulatory, economic,
and inventory requirements. Sophisticated computer programs have been developed to
optimize all aspects of refinery operation, including the final blending step. Refineries are
optimized for overall performance, not just for the production of diesel fuel.
The refiner really has limited control over the detailed composition of the final diesel
blend. It is determined primarily by the composition of the crude oil feed, which is usually
selected based on considerations of availability and cost. While the chemical reactions
that occur in the conversion processes involve compositional changes, they are not specific
enough to allow for much tailoring of the products. Yet, despite these limitations, refineries
daily produce large volumes of on-test products.

--------------------------------------


TC-W3 rated outboard lube is a mix of heavier lower quality crude hydrocarbon oils of approx 20w viscosity with organic antiwear/antiscuff/mix improvers/ no ash additives. The base oil is solvent (read low cost) extracted from low cost low quality crudes since outboards retain the oil for such a short period of time. No need or justification for expensive base stocks. The base stock is taken off lower in the refinery system with the majority of hydrocarbons being low volatility. Much higher flash point and autoignition temperature than diesel. Can equate flash point and AI temps to cetane #.

Flash point Autoignition temperature

TC-W3 >100° C >250°C

Diesel >62 °C >210 °C

Oils are not cetane tested since they have not been used as engine fuels for decades. Want starting problems in a modern diesel requiring high cetane fuels, try straight motor oils. Even when heated, they don't engine start below summer warm temps well if at all.

One other factor to take into account when adding TC-W3 to ULSD is that it is a very high sulfur oil product. 5000>20000 ppm and will show up when EPA requires full exhaust testing or the Feds and states start looking for more than the tax red dye. Sample sent to lab tells all, who knows when they'll start looking for the pretty blue dyed diesel?

 

First off, please don't mistake that I am debating the importance of our fuel's cetane rating. I am not, I know North America gets pretty junky fuel.

--------------------------------------


TC-W3 rated outboard lube is a mix of heavier lower quality crude hydrocarbon oils of approx 20w viscosity with organic antiwear/antiscuff/mix improvers/ no ash additives. The base oil is solvent (read low cost) extracted from low cost low quality crudes since outboards retain the oil for such a short period of time. No need or justification for expensive base stocks. The base stock is taken off lower in the refinery system with the majority of hydrocarbons being low volatility. Much higher flash point and autoignition temperature than diesel. Can equate flash point and AI temps to cetane #.

Flash point Autoignition temperature

TC-W3 >100° C >250°C

Diesel >62 °C >210 °C

Oils are not cetane tested since they have not been used as engine fuels for decades. Want starting problems in a modern diesel requiring high cetane fuels, try straight motor oils. Even when heated, they don't engine start below summer warm temps well if at all.

One other factor to take into account when adding TC-W3 to ULSD is that it is a very high sulfur oil product. 5000>20000 ppm and will show up when EPA requires full exhaust testing or the Feds and states start looking for more than the tax red dye. Sample sent to lab tells all, who knows when they'll start looking for the pretty blue dyed diesel?

Now with respect to 2 cycle, if I am understanding you correctly you are basically saying that because you are now introducing a cetane - inferior/challenged fuel into the fuel system it will effect the fuel performance. I would agree with you since, as you posted 2 cycle is more resistant to combustion than good olde diesel, however the vast majority of us are running very small quantities of 2 cycle to the diesel fuel.

For example, when I had my dodge I ran a pint of two cycle to my 34 IIRC gallon tank.

34 gallons x 4 quarts x 2 pints gives me 272 pints of the mixture in my truck.

Which is 99.632535% diesel and .36764% 2 cycle, for the sake of argument lets say 2 cycle has a cetane rating of zero...worst case here...I have no idea what 2 cycle's cetane is and I will assume that we are running 40 cetane diesel.

So the weighted average cetane is .9963*40, which equals...39.852...giving us a net loss of .37% of the total mixtures cetane rating....your telling me my truck is going to have a noticeable difference with a change of .37%? Can they even accurately measure cetane at that small a level? Really there will be far more of a variation from fuel station to fuel station than the difference introduced from the 2 cycle IMHO.

Now with respect to sulfur you have the diesel which is 15ppm and 20,000ppm (where did you get that number by the by, googling only yielded 2 cycles with ppm ranging from 50-1000ppm) anyways lets just run with the 20k.

So 15*.9963 and 20,000*.0037 give you a weighted average ppm of 88.9445 so it does bump the sulfur up a bit...assuming 20,000ppm. But will inspection stations have or get the equipment to measure that and, more importantly, will the techs have a clue how to use it? I don't know, for now I will take my chances.

Also, why would the EPA have to go testing for sulfur....ULSD is now and will be going forward the dominate fuel available in the US and the amount of people that mod trucks are small and the amount of people that add 2 cycle or any other sulfur enhancing product is even smaller. Based on our emissions regulations going forward "public enemy number one" for diesel emissions is Nox, hence the use of EGR and SCR, followed by particulates....but you never know. The EPA has been know to surprise people but for now I will run the risk.

Aight, I am done...

 

I'm guilty officer, ya caught me with blue stains on my fingers, no I don't have an outboard under the hood of my Ram.

 

Stanadyne Blue bottle=THE BEST!!

 

Uuuh,...so after all the mathmatical equations,... Is it OK to run .5 oz of TCW-3 per gallon? I mean, if your not worried about EPA?

 

IMHO...yes.

You are dropping the cetane rating of the fuel by an immaterial number and I don't see the EPA rattling their sabers about 2 cycle in diesel fuel any time soon. I think they would be more worried about some running LSD, which has 5.7 times the sulfur content as the 20k (which I am not sure if that is the right concentration) 2 cycle mixed with the ULSD.

 

the only thing the gov. is enforcing at the present time is the Fed. diesel public hwy fuel taxes guaranteed by the use of non red dyed fuel. they could care less if our grandkids are dieing from diesel particulates or sulfur dioxide acid rain.

we have no scientific based testing empirically proving that TC-W3 OB lube helps our diesels. it's all subjective seat of the pants judgement and guessing.

if rufus' math and his assumptions about the dosing strength additive effect of OB lube at 0.5oz to 2 oz per gal diesel are correct concerning the infinitesimally small increase in lubricating sulfur compounds and lubricity improving paraffin hydrocarbons from the OB lube, then there can be no scientific based explanation or justification for adding OB 2 stroke lube to diesel. Unless, there is something else in OB lube that improves lubricity?

maybe it's just all wishful thinking?

I await input from the thinkers among you

 

the only thing the gov. is enforcing at the present time is the Fed. diesel public hwy fuel taxes guaranteed by the use of non red dyed fuel. they could care less if our grandkids are dieing from diesel particulates or sulfur dioxide acid rain.

Well the most accurate records of any government is tax records, so that shouldn't surprise anyone and relive most worry about the feds going nuts over sulfur testing.

we have no scientific based testing empirically proving that TC-W3 OB lube helps our diesels. it's all subjective seat of the pants judgement and guessing.

if rufus' math and his assumptions about the dosing strength additive effect of OB lube at 0.5oz to 2 oz per gal diesel are correct concerning the infinitesimally small increase in lubricating sulfur compounds and lubricity improving paraffin hydrocarbons from the OB lube, then there can be no scientific based explanation or justification for adding OB 2 stroke lube to diesel. Unless, there is something else in OB lube that improves lubricity?

Based on my assumptions the sulfuric content of the fuel did increase 593% so while it doesn't bump the levels of sulfur and its co-solvents up to the levels of LSD, it does increase them on a material level.

Also, I can't assume that the relationship between lubricating additives (in this case 2 stroke) and their benefits is 45* linear (1:1) it is possible that they are exponential but it is also possible they are inverse. At this point your reaching the limits of what deductive logic can accurately determine without a lab.

The infomous diesel place fuel lube study(diesel place fuel lube study - Google Search), the 2 stroke (run at a 200:1 ratio), did see a 25.4% improvement in the lubricating properties of the fuel. Now did the 2 cycle come in first place? No....not even close it was 7th, biodiesel was the big winner.

While I greatly appreciate the work done by Mr. Spicer....I know that is not an MIT grade research paper...however it does provide evidence to support the conclusion that 2 cycle does aid in fuel system lube.

I am not going to lie, the biggest reason I ran 2 cycle in my dodge was cause of the mpg bump, not huge but I would consistently see about .25-.5 mpg. I get about the same results out of my 7.3 with a quart per tank.

Yes, this is a bunch of back yard engineering but doesn't that what websites like this are all about? I mean if we were all happy with our trucks from the factory or the fuel we got from the pump...we polly won't be here...

Ok, I am hungover and need a donut...

 

As a person with "Seat of the pants" experience only, I am going to continue to add a pint, (8 oz) to my tank at every other fill, and let the chips fall. It is my opinion, and that is just unscientific, it feels good to me to have the added lubricity and perhaps keep the engine running longer.
Of course, I am not in an area where the temps stay below 20F for any extended time, and winter is not that much of a factor. SUMMER? Oh YEAH! I live in the high desert, so ANY additional help with top cylinder lube is helpful. Just in my honest opinion.
It FREQUENTLY is OVER 110F every day, and heat as we know is not a great help in longevity.

 

Will the Wal-mart brand of 2 cycle oil be sufficient? Synthetic or conventional? Do they make both? Sorry to sound ignorant here, but I am.

 

More info than you would ever want to know on this site:

The Mopar1973Man 2 Cycle Oil Page

 

WalMart Supertech TCW3 Outboard 2-stroke oil is the one that most folks recommend, yup. I've used it for a while, and it cured some of the issues I was having, but I can't be certain that it wasn't responsible for the high level of carbon that was crusted all over my injector tips when I swapped new injectors in this weekend. Maybe, maybe not... but it did quiet down my noisy, dying injectors for about 15,000 miles until 2 of them finally blew a solenoid.