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3rd gen brake upgrade opinion


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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello, all, I recently changed my brakes up to the Gen 3 parts and I thought I'd write about it in case it will help anybody. Complete list of part numbers are at the bottom of this post.

***THIS is my first real attempt a write-up here so I'll have to monkey with the pictures and so forth...please stand by while I experience technical difficulties****

First, I have a 2002 2500 4x4. I don't know if this will work on the 99 and back which I've read have different axles.

Second, I'm not going to cover every little detail; this isn't a how-to (I'm sure this has been done to death). This is just to do three things: 1) provide positive reinforcement that it can be done and works, 2) provide a concise list of part numbers for someone who wants to do this without having to do the legwork I did, and 3) to provide information on a couple of pitfalls.

That said, I used all NAPA parts for the brakes since my neighbor and good friend owns the local NAPA store. I am happy with the performance of the brakes so far (I just installed the new wheels and tires today so I've not had much time to play with them, but they feel more solid than the previous brakes, also from NAPA). The factory brakes were always anemic to put it politely.

In order to do this from a STOCK 02 setup you will need from a 2003 year model 2500 4x4 (my write up only includes the 4x4 models, I don't know about the 2WD): rotors all the way around, brake pads all the way around, 17 inch or larger wheels all the way around (okay, I didn't try to put the 16's on the back...but really? How dumb would that look? So I put 17's all the way around), and *EITHER* new calipers with carriers *OR* just new carriers. I've read that the calipers are themselves the same from the 02 to the 03+ but the carriers are different. I didn't want to hunt around for just the carriers and I don't have a good wrecking yard around here so...I bought all new caliper assemblies complete with the carriers. I did compare the 02 calipers to the 03 and *visually* they seem to be the same, including the part numbers on them, IIRC. FWIW. YMMV. ILA (I Love Acronyms).

I chose to go with stamped steel wheels for cost (this is a work truck) and because I bounce up and down dirt roads in this rig and there's no point beating aluminum wheels up. I got some Cragars from Summit. Three showed up slightly scuffed and dinged but Summit gave me some money back on them. Other than that, I like them. I got CRR-3428980 wheels, bolt pattern is 8 on 6.5, they are 17" (as I stated already), and they are 9" wide. They have 5" backspace. I chose the 9" to give a more flush sidewall appearance with the tires.

I chose Hankook <something-or-other> MT tires on the recommendation of a friend of mine. I got them in 265/70 R17. The 265/70 R17 winds up being 1 inch shorter on diameter than my previous 285/75 R16's but still an inch taller than the factory 245/75 R16's.

I got the center caps and chrome lug nuts: centercap part number from Summit: CRR-29277-1. Chrome lug nuts P/N from Summit: SUM-7540163.

*Warning* the center cap is about the size of a clitoris on a blue whale. It offers very little room for the socket to fit around the lug nuts and not strike the center cap. Be careful or you'll scar up the center cap. Pop quiz: do female whales even have a clitoris? Oh,and the area around where the center cap has stamped CRAGAR on it looks like it was hand painted by authentic meth monkies. Really, not well done (see the picture).



Installation is really pretty easy: pull off the old calipers and rotors, put the new ones on. Lefty loosey, righty tighty. I flushed the brake system since I'd *NEVER* put fluid in or changed the fluid in over 163,000 miles. Good idea.

Front one:


Rear one:


*Heads up* The bolt on the 02 calipers was a 5/16" by something thread whatever. The bolt on the 03 calipers is a 10mm x 1.0mm (this is the banjo bolt I'm referring to). The old one *kinda* fits in and threads but don't use it, it's too small to ever get tight; you'll just thrash the threads on the new caliper or the bolt. The part number for the bolt from Dodge is (per the baggy mine came in): 0650 8914 AA. Also, the torque spec on the 02 (from the FSM) is 40 lb/ft, unless I read it wrong. I might have because, when I found the banjo bolts wouldn't work from the 02 I tried machining some 10x1.00mm bolts to make my own and promptly twisted one off. ARRGGHH!!! So, I waited until the next day, got the factory parts and then used my German torque wrench: Gutentight. So, don't shower down on these things unless you don't mind backing one out or if you find I misread the torque spec and it's 40 lb/INCH or you find a lower torque spec for the 03+ banjo bolt. You've been warned; be careful or Sergeant Twistoff will visit you!

*Heads up* The 10x1.00mm bolt is slightly larger in diameter than the factory 2002 bolts, as I alluded to above. This means that the hole through the banjo fitting is slightly too small to allow the 10mm bolt to pass through it. I bored the holes in the banjo fittings with a 25/64 (IIRC, verify this is the right size by drilling a test hole in a sacrificial piece of metal (not wood)) inch bit which *just* permitted the new 10mm bolt to pass through. You could try a 13/32 for a little more room. I then sprayed the hound out of the fittings with brake parts cleaner as well as back up into the brake line a little to flush out any chips from boring the hole. Then I let the brake fluid drip from the tubing/banjo fitting to purge any remaining brake parts cleaner prior to connection to the calipers.

Bleed the system, mount your 17" or larger wheels/tires on and you're good to go. I'll hammer on the brakes in the next few days after they get broken in and let you know if I'm happy or not.

There very much doesn't appear to be enough room to run 16" wheels on this, as has been reported here several (many) times:


And with the first new wheel installed:


Anyway, hope this helps someone.

Here are the brake part numbers from NAPA:

Front
48880143 - Rotor (need two)
SE5442A - Caliper assembly Left
SE5441A - Caliper assembly Right
UP7864SD - Pads

Rear
48880139 - Rotor (need two)
SE5446A - Caliper assembly Left
SE5445A - Caliper assembly Right
UP7752SD - Pads

And putting it all in one place:
From the dealership
0650 8914 AA - Dodge banjo bolts 10mm x 1.00 mm (read bit about boring the banjo fittings above)

From Summit Racing
CRR-3428980 - Cragar black steel wheels, 8 on 6.5, 9 inch rim width
CRR-29277-1 - Center caps for Cragar wheels
SUM-7540163 - Chrome lug nuts

And in response to a reply to this thread...*HOW MUCH DID IT COST!?!*

Going from memory 'cause all my filing is done at my other place:

NAPA parts (rotors, pads, calipers): $700.00
Summit Racing parts (wheels, lug nuts, center caps): $500ish
Tire shop (tires, mount, balance, used spare rim (DO NOT FORGET TO CHANGE YOUR SPARE!!!!), used spare tire): $1,100ish

So, about $2,400 not including the brake fluid to flush and fill and bleed the system.

Bear in mind: if you already need rubber or if you already want new wheels, those costs can be considered separate (not really changing the overall cost...just how you justify it). More importantly, if you already have 17" wheels then you don't need to spend more than about 700 bucks to do this (and it could be cheaper if you just find some caliper carriers for the 3rd gen and re-use your old calipers).

--HC
 

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Nice write up.
Interested to know how much of an improvement this is over stock.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
 

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I might sticky this.....


IF, we can get all the answer figured out... and concrete


OP, hope you don't mind I added a poll
 

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Nice write up.
Interested to know how much of an improvement this is over stock.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
SIGNIFICANT... Though I had two seized calipers before I did the replacement.

Couple key points to note here:

-the parking brake shoes between 2nd gen and 3rd gen are the same part. (Raybestos PG771 or equivalent)

-The calipers are not 100% necessary, only the caliper brackets are necessary. 2nd gen and 3rd gen calipers are the same.

-Remanned calipers sometimes have stripped banjo bolts and the guy rebuilding them at the shop might not have been too smart. My 3rd gen calipers had the same bolts and thread pitch as 2nd gen ones.
 

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How much $ do you have in the swap?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Nice write up.
Interested to know how much of an improvement this is over stock.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
First, thank you.

Second, unknown improvement. I didn't do any comparison stops before changing the brakes. I just figured that larger rotors and more pad contact had to be good. I think my best bet for offering quantifiable results will be if, when the brakes are broken in, I hit them *hard* and if I can get tires to lock up and activate the ABS. I *NEVER* got that truck to engage the ABS unless it was wet or icy. I've been all over the brakes with a light load on a 16' trailer and twice passed through an intersection I never meant to even enter. If I can lock 'em up enough to engage the ABS, that will be positive, useful information. If I can tie onto the same trailer and do some emergency stops and actually STOP, that will be pretty good information. But I'm sorry, I don't have any really solid, scientific way to tell if it's that much better. Just going to have to go by the seat of my pants.

Gimme a day or two to break 'em in and then I'll hit 'em hard and we'll see. Kinda hate to do that...with a grand worth of rubber on the road it makes my wallet hurt tryin' to lock up the brakes. :)


****EDIT****

Okay, it's been too long but I finally had a chance to do some testing. Short version: Very happy.

Longer version: I'm running Hankook <something> MT tires in a 265/70-17 size. These tires are SOFT, although with large tread gaps, and the tires seem a little light on inflation (I need to check them). The point is that I have gobs of traction. I did three pretty hard stops from 55-60 MPH near my house in a rural area with good blacktop. Each time it felt like the truck was pitching hard to the front (dive). I managed to trip the ABS (something that I'd never done unless the road was wet or icy). This thing *stops*. Really a nice improvement over what I had. For comparison, I've been through two intersections in this truck that I didn't want to go through but lacked the brakes to prevent. Running Michelin <something> A/S and M/S tires, in the past, which seem a lot harder than the Hankooks I have now and I still wasn't able to lock them up (well, trip the ABS) and that was when I was really motivated to mash on the pedal (not like here where I hit it pretty hard but it's not the same as a real emergency). So, I have LOTS more brakes now.

Unfortunately I cannot quantify this. I wish I'd thought to set up some markers on the roadway and do a number of test runs before and after but I didn't and I'm not going back to the old stuff to do it now.

I can tell you I spent several minutes pulling stuff out of the front floorboards which had been in the back seat and rear floorboards after doing these stops. No kidding. And I noticed a day later that the back of my truck was cleaned out and had to think...when did I do that...until I looked under the toolbox. Oh, that's where all the junk back here went. Again, not kidding...&#$^% wedged up under the toolbox. I've not tackled that problem yet. I probably should clean all the crap out of the truck... :)

I'm happy and if I had to do it over again I'd do the same thing.

**** END EDIT ****

--HC
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I might sticky this.....


IF, we can get all the answer figured out... and concrete


OP, hope you don't mind I added a poll
First, like your graphic avatar whatever. Clint rocks.

I'd love it if you stickied this. I'm adding a little more information to it, check the bottom of the posting, hopefully it's got enough information to help others and be worthy of sticky status.

Please let me know which answers you want concrete answers to. If you mean stopping distances or other measurements of performance I'm not able to help, I already dropped my calipers back off at the NAPA shop for cores. If you need other info, though, I'll try to help.

I don't mind a bit. I actually think that would help with actually, truly helping others who are looking into this...not just *what* can be done but is it *worth it*.

--HC
 

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Discussion Starter #8
SIGNIFICANT... Though I had two seized calipers before I did the replacement.

Couple key points to note here:

-the parking brake shoes between 2nd gen and 3rd gen are the same part. (Raybestos PG771 or equivalent)

-The calipers are not 100% necessary, only the caliper brackets are necessary. 2nd gen and 3rd gen calipers are the same.

-Remanned calipers sometimes have stripped banjo bolts and the guy rebuilding them at the shop might not have been too smart. My 3rd gen calipers had the same bolts and thread pitch as 2nd gen ones.
FWIW, all four of my calipers were the same thread and I did buy mine through NAPA (hopefully they put out a better product than some shop which would pass off mix-n-match sized bolt holes). I don't think they were screwing around and when I went to get replacement bolts I went to the local Dodge dealer and just asked for banjo bolts for a 2003 (not a 2002 which the truck really is) QCLB 4x4 blah blah blah plaid, twin ion engine, NOS, hov'r mode truck and they gave me the bolts with the P/N in my post and those fit...so I think NAPA gave me the right parts and the 2003 bolts from the dealership sure didn't fit my early-02 truck but they did fit the NAPA calipers. :confused013:

But what I put in my post works on my truck/calipers. I'd love it if some others would chime in with hands-on stories of banjo bolts and fittings in this swap...was mine unique?

--HC

A
 
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Discussion Starter #9
How much $ do you have in the swap?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
I meant to put that in my original post and overlooked it. I'm sorry.

I have updated my post but to save you trouble....

About $700 for the brake parts.

About 1,100 for the tires (mount, balance, blah blah blah) plus spare/spare rim...don't forget to do this or you'll be stuck on the side of the road with a flat and a spare you can sit on but not drive on.

About 500ish for the wheels/center caps/lug nuts.

So, about 2,300-2,400 bucks all-told for me since I was coming from a stock 02 setup with factory wheels. As I mentioned in my post, you could re-use the calipers if you could find caliper brackets and knock the wind out of that 700 bucks above. If you can find them.

--HC
 

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I'm going off memory here. on my stock 01 set up I tried a panic stop from 60mph, and by the time I stopped I had brake fade and the smell was horrible, actually was not technically able to pull to a complete stop.brakes were cooked.
after the 3rd gen swap I tried a panic stop from over 80mph (I think it was closer to 90mph) and I actually stopped had no brake fade but you could smell the brakes...during the stop I near put myself thru the windshield.

not scientific but the difference is night and day once put in a panic situation, keep in mind the rear drum brakes MUST be adjusted properly, and in my case I even had to lengthen the brake proportion rod to get full use of the rears

considering that this mod is not really any more expensive that doing a stock brake job its a no brainer, except the largest cost is the expense of the rims/tires.

prices i paid were
pads 80$(cermic ATE)
rotors 75$ ea(white boxed )
caliper brackets approx 100 for the pair
17 inch rims 200$
 

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I have the ebc slotted rotors and ceramic pads, I think I will upgrade to the same setup for a 3rd gen when the time comes. Thanks op
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I have the ebc slotted rotors and ceramic pads, I think I will upgrade to the same setup for a 3rd gen when the time comes. Thanks op

You are very welcome.

--HC
 

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I was told by a friend I wouldnt be able to do this with my 17x9 xd diesels? any one know if that is true or not? I would love to do this to mine
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I was told by a friend I wouldnt be able to do this with my 17x9 xd diesels? any one know if that is true or not? I would love to do this to mine
???

Not sure why you couldn't do this unless the XD's have a super small radius to the cylindrical portion on the 17's with super tall lips to catch the 17" tires. Not bloody likely, I think. But, hey, I was wrong once before. I remember it distinctly, it happened on a Thursday. Happened once, could happen again.

Cheap, easy test: Go to you favorite auto parts store and buy a caliper for a 2003 Dodge 2500 (4x4 or 2x4 or 2x8, whatever, they are, AFAIK, all the same for the 03+), pop one of the front wheels off then the brake caliper (leave it all plumbed in), mount the new one (gently, you may have to take it back), tie the hooked-up old caliper out of the way with some wire or a coat hanger, and then try fitting the wheel back on and check for clearance (keep the tire off the ground and spin it)...is there drag or other indicators of contact? Just be sure your hooked-up/plumbed-in caliper is out of the way.

Do this on the front, to reiterate, because the rears have smaller rotors and if it clears the rear it doesn't guarantee it will clear on the front.

If there is contact or drag, take the caliper back (it's still new and hasn't been connected so it shouldn't be a problem). If not, buy the remaining pieces and tell your friend he doesn't know "come here" from "sic 'em". :)

--HC
 
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i may just do that thanks for the idea!!!
 

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I want to but I love how cheap my 16" 35's are compared to 17" but stoping is always nice...
 

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3rd Gen Brake Upgrade

If you think you notice a braking difference when truck is empty, put a 3,000 lb camper on your truck, then hook up to a 20' boat. That's when you REALLY notice the braking improvement. If you can get your hands on some 17"+ rims, I highly recommend this mod. We always look for more power but this may save my life one of these days, no joke.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
i may just do that thanks for the idea!!!
You are very welcome. Seems a good, reversible yet definitive test.

And cheap and easy. Just like I like my women.

--HC
 
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Discussion Starter #19
I want to but I love how cheap my 16" 35's are compared to 17" but stoping is always nice...
Two intersections I didn't intend to go through
+
No accidents
=
Pucker Factor 7 + Lesson to get better stopping power.

One intersection you don't intend to go through.
+
One little bitty accident
=
Lawsuit with punitive, emotional, and loss of <whatever> damages.

I got lucky (ok, BLESSED) with my near misses. But the cost of rubber pales in comparison to the blood sucking lawyers tearing a hunk of flesh out of you and your insurance company. Besides, if you pour yourself into an accident because you have the same anemic brakes I had and hit a small car it could smear a letter or two on your OWL tires and then you're buyin' new rubber anyway.

--HC
 

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another tid bit
2000-2008 all have same caliper (dual piston).

My XD's fit my 3rd gen, so I cannot see why they would not clear on a second gen

not confirmed but the 00-08 caliper brackets may all be the same(size wise part numbers may be different). I tossed mine before checking to see if this was true
 
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