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So today i dropped my truck off for a leak between the tranny and block, and for corroded pin's in the C5 receptacle of the TIPM. Further inspection more receptacle pins are also turning green. No problem. Insurance is going to pay the $875 + tx for the TIPM because SW said yea, accident could have caused that, as well as the internal short.

First, I have chronicled an electrical issue that has plagued the truck for a whole year; basically since i ran into a school bus (yes, search for School Bus 1 Truck 0 and for Clueless: Batteries Keep Going Dead). I'll avoid the details here, since its all documented there.

My point is the tech and i got into an 'energetic' conversation about the TIPM, my Edge Insight, my Lighted Tow Mirrors, and performance after EGR & DPF delete.

First, he was irate about the splice connections i made for my tow mirrors....because they were made were the instruction said to make them. I know electricity so i know how to read a schematic. I soldered then heat shrink-ed them. They are prefect. He went on about how they can void the warranty yadda yadda. whatever. THEY DIDN"T EVEN KNOW it as for the mirrors. He went on for 15 minutes, and thought it was for the 'programmer'. :buttkick: DUH! Its an Edge Insight.....ONLY monitors, and sends nothing into the ECM, or any other module! LMFAO!

Then, i explained once i do do the EGR and DPF deletes, is he going to have a problem working on anything else related to a warranty issue as long as its not related to the items i remove? He said no, he'll void the entire warranty. Whatever. SW from two other dealers said don't worry about it. Worst case, they only void if mod is related to failure, and even then, its depended on total cost for them to do work. Low cost, they turn their head. I can live with that. Engine failure, said Cummins sends a tech out to find a reason not to pay. Understandable.

Finally, he had the 'nerve' to tell me installing mods will decrease performance, and actually hurt MPG and vehicle! If not done right, i would agree. But where are they coming up with this stuff?

My point is that these are the people who are supposed to know how to work on, troubleshoot, and repair our vehicles. Out of the tech's i've dealt with owning these vehicles, maybe 2 or 3 of the 20 or so really knew their stuff. The rest? I lost 40 IQ points after listening to them. My rant is over. I'm just dumbfounded by some of the things he said today.

And BTW, my Mini Maxx, 5"TBE, EGR delete, and pillar mount came in today. What warranty? :hehe:
 

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They did a full vechile warranty voild on my truck. There was a new service guy there and he showed me the computer screen it said warranty void and see notes and it listed all the voided warranty parts and it was basically the whole truck. They saw all the performance stuff and they told me I can't just remove parts from the truck.(ie egr,DFP). I had issues when I got my truck in 2008 but after I did the deletes and some minor mods the truck runs awesome, I do regular maintence and have had 80000kms trouble free.
 

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yea, i don't mind doing my own maintenance, but just took it in for one last visit before i add my new toys. just blew me away at the lack of knowledge on what a tuner / programmer is or isn't, and all that.
 

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You should have seen the reaction I got, the last time I was at a dodge dealership, when I popped the hood:hehe::rof:hehe::rof


This one got a good reaction to:shock::shock:The guy was like......what have you done!!???:confused013:
 

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You should have seen the reaction I got, the last time I was at a dodge dealership, when I popped the hood:hehe::rof:hehe::rof


This one got a good reaction to:shock::shock:The guy was like......what have you done!!???:confused013:

I would have liked to been a fly on that wall just to see the reaction of the tech!
 

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First off not agreeing with all the stuff the tech said, but remember factory training doesn't teach you about aftermarket products and how they work. Also lots of shops don't warranty anything that was been modified at all.
 
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Alot of "techs" (not all of them) don't have clue how to trouble shoot or slove drivability problems unless they have a code to tell them which parts to change. I don't call them techs. I call them parts changers! A real tech has the ability to think outside the box, takes the time to listen to the customer, address there concerns, and fix the problem.. Unfortunately parts changers blow off the customer by trying to feed them a line of shizt about how nothing is wrong, and you as the customer is stupid because they are not qualified to fix the customers issues...
 
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Under the MOSS Act, they can't void your warranty for having the parts on your truck. They have to prove that the aftermarket part caused the failure first. I'm not saying that they won't try to get out of working on your truck, I'm saying they can't just pop the hood and say they are voiding your warranty. I also agree about a bunch of them try to blow smoke up peoples behinds too.
 

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Under the MOSS Act, they can't void your warranty for having the parts on your truck. They have to prove that the aftermarket part caused the failure first. I'm not saying that they won't try to get out of working on your truck, I'm saying they can't just pop the hood and say they are voiding your warranty. I also agree about a bunch of them try to blow smoke up peoples behinds too.

Yea, they never said they were going to void my warranty, it was just the implication and their attitude about it. I asked if they were going to cover the TIPM under warranty but they said no. Doesn't matter, cause insurance will since SW documented 'result of accident'. Still, with corrosion, that's not normal no matter what. I guess had insurance not agreed to it, i would pushed back harder with respect to that.

With respect to you comment about popping the hood, so they can't void a warranty just by looking under hood? Want to make sure i understand that because their attitude was they could. I've always thought it was upon any dealer or manufacturer to PROVE the owner installed mod / enhancement was the cause of the failure, and a simple 'well, you put it there so that's what caused this here because i said so' isnt sufficient enough.
 

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Alot of "techs" (not all of them) don't have clue how to trouble shoot or slove drivability problems unless they have a code to tell them which parts to change. I don't call them techs. I call them parts changers! A real tech has the ability to think outside the box, takes the time to listen to the customer, address there concerns, and fix the problem.. Unfortunately parts changers blow off the customer by trying to feed them a line of shizt about how nothing is wrong, and you as the customer is stupid because they are not qualified to fix the customers issues...
That isn't really the problem. There are lots of VERY competent techs out there.

Actual problem:

There are TONS of people who will install stuff on their cars/trucks who are worse than parts changers and will do just about any wierd/strange thing when installing parts. As a tech, I have no idea what you did, and am not getting paid to track down a problem that could have been caused by the owner.

Facts: Techs get paid .3 hours for diagnosis unless the problem is deeper, and you have to get management approval for the diagnosis. This is what the manufacturer pays for. You have to justify your work to the OEM to get paid. If a customer ends up having a problem because of something he/she did to their truck, the tech may or may not get paid for the diagnosis, and definitely would not get paid to replace parts.

While a single owner may know every caveat of their own truck, techs are supposed to know everything about every model/variation of all the vehicles. It isn't really possible, especially with new models/updates/recalls always coming through the door. You also need to understand that unless you are a specialized diesel shop, the chances of a diesel tech seeing quite a few of these trucks is slim.

It isn't hard to write up a BS story about why you changed a part. When you get paid 18 minutes to figure out what is wrong, you have to make a decision and go with it. Yep, sometimes that means you get a comeback and the customer isn't happy. If the shops would pay technicians a salary rather than flat rate, a LOT of these problems wouldn't exist. As has been said, I used to get paid by the job, not by how hard or how long I worked.

So, if you come in with all sorts of BS on your truck and are expecting me to decipher your MIL light in 18 minutes, I'd probably tell you to go in a hat. It isn't worth my time. Stock truck, absoultely.

Why do we stick to this a lot of the time? Because we have all been in situations where an owner has lied about various things on their cars/trucks/whatever. Maybe they "forgot" to mention the front end wreck that they didn't report to the insurance company that is now pinching wires causing all kinds of havoc. I'm sure you've all read forums where guys who have no business doing mods to their cars (tasteful or not) end up screwing things up, car won't run, and they throw everything back to stock and head to the dealership. In fact, I've seen this happen on this forum.

I'm actually glad I left that business. Dealing with customers was the biggest issue, along with stupid service writers and parts people. Oh yeah, I started out with the best of intentions, trying to keep my CSI (customer service index) scores up there with the best of them. I'd try and work with customers and make it as good of an experience as I could. Then reality set in after about 2-3 years.

I'm sure that your personal experience with your truck may be a good one, and you may have done everything right to your truck. I don't know that, nor would I take the chance. Call me disenfranchised if you must. I much more prefer cranking out 15-25 flat rate hours in a day, rather than poking around with some modified truck.

And lastly, remember that they don't have any obligation to work on your truck. Dodge does not own these dealers. They are private businesses and can tell you to bugger off if they don't like the color of your truck.

Sorry for the rant
 

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Amen foglight, that is spot on. And I don't blame you for getting out of the business, I'm not far from jumping ship myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
So, if you come in with all sorts of BS on your truck and are expecting me to decipher your MIL light in 18 minutes, I'd probably tell you to go in a hat. It isn't worth my time. Stock truck, absoultely.
I agree in most part with your statements. I know its physically impossible to know everything about every variance of a particular model. My point here is two fold:

1. The tech should at least 'listen' to the customer (the SW did, and made notes to help the tech). This particular tech didn't even begin to listen past word 1. This the same tech who said 'high idle cannot be enabled on an automatic', when my wife brought in PRINTED menu steps to do it! I was in Iraq and i would have dropped dead right there if I was there to hear that!)

2. I have NO mods on my truck......right now anyway. Unless you count a Prodigy brake controller, or the Edge Insight that plugs into the ODBII port. Neither of these affect performance. His incompetence in thinking that i somehow spliced that thing into the back of the TIPM is crazy! Uh, hello! what is the connector hanging out from under the dash for? Then arguing right off the bat that he could void my warranty in a snap was astounding. Blew me away. I'm sure he could, but to come off as an a$$ without even knowing what he was talking about, that's just plain wrong. The SW shook his head as this was going on. A customer shouldn't have to listen to a dissertation on voiding a warranty, especially if ANOTHER dealer did the work wrong.

If I COULD, i would take it to another dealer. But i live in BFE Mississippi, and this place is supposed to be 5-star. Their non-diesel techs are awesome. This guy is a moron. I understand they have limited time, and are bound to a set number of hours for given jobs. total agreement. I guess where i differ is when i talk to a client about their software issues, i get all the info, right or wrong, so i at least know what they did, and figure out where to start de-bugging. If i determine they are an idiot after that fact, i tell them in a politically correct, non-disrespectful way.

Finally, i went in for a rear main seal leak, and corrosion on the TIPM connectors. Neither of which have anything to do with mods. I could understand the reaming if I rolled in there with the 5" TBE, Mini Maxx, and EGR delete i am installing after they replace the TIPM and rear main seal :hehe: Thanks for you're perspective from the tech standpoint though. It does help to know what color the grass is on the other side.
 

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foglight Im kind of against the dealers ever since i was told i needed a spark plug change due to mileage. I understand what your saying in the context of "im running a tuner and now my truck is running weird." But if i have a rear end bearing going out, or something else that is totally non related to my tuner.... well it really makes you want to deck the idiot who thinks it does.

As far as the whole 18 minutes to diagnose something, well thats just to bad, the tech could have asked before they took the job. If they find something bigger wrong with the vehicle wont that lead to more payed hours?
 

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That isn't really the problem. There are lots of VERY competent techs out there.

Actual problem:

There are TONS of people who will install stuff on their cars/trucks who are worse than parts changers and will do just about any wierd/strange thing when installing parts. As a tech, I have no idea what you did, and am not getting paid to track down a problem that could have been caused by the owner.

Facts: Techs get paid .3 hours for diagnosis unless the problem is deeper, and you have to get management approval for the diagnosis. This is what the manufacturer pays for. You have to justify your work to the OEM to get paid. If a customer ends up having a problem because of something he/she did to their truck, the tech may or may not get paid for the diagnosis, and definitely would not get paid to replace parts.

While a single owner may know every caveat of their own truck, techs are supposed to know everything about every model/variation of all the vehicles. It isn't really possible, especially with new models/updates/recalls always coming through the door. You also need to understand that unless you are a specialized diesel shop, the chances of a diesel tech seeing quite a few of these trucks is slim.

It isn't hard to write up a BS story about why you changed a part. When you get paid 18 minutes to figure out what is wrong, you have to make a decision and go with it. Yep, sometimes that means you get a comeback and the customer isn't happy. If the shops would pay technicians a salary rather than flat rate, a LOT of these problems wouldn't exist. As has been said, I used to get paid by the job, not by how hard or how long I worked.

So, if you come in with all sorts of BS on your truck and are expecting me to decipher your MIL light in 18 minutes, I'd probably tell you to go in a hat. It isn't worth my time. Stock truck, absoultely.

Why do we stick to this a lot of the time? Because we have all been in situations where an owner has lied about various things on their cars/trucks/whatever. Maybe they "forgot" to mention the front end wreck that they didn't report to the insurance company that is now pinching wires causing all kinds of havoc. I'm sure you've all read forums where guys who have no business doing mods to their cars (tasteful or not) end up screwing things up, car won't run, and they throw everything back to stock and head to the dealership. In fact, I've seen this happen on this forum.

I'm actually glad I left that business. Dealing with customers was the biggest issue, along with stupid service writers and parts people. Oh yeah, I started out with the best of intentions, trying to keep my CSI (customer service index) scores up there with the best of them. I'd try and work with customers and make it as good of an experience as I could. Then reality set in after about 2-3 years.

I'm sure that your personal experience with your truck may be a good one, and you may have done everything right to your truck. I don't know that, nor would I take the chance. Call me disenfranchised if you must. I much more prefer cranking out 15-25 flat rate hours in a day, rather than poking around with some modified truck.

And lastly, remember that they don't have any obligation to work on your truck. Dodge does not own these dealers. They are private businesses and can tell you to bugger off if they don't like the color of your truck.

Sorry for the rant
Ditto foglght. Been a dealer tech over 25 yrs. Seen more $hit from local garages and audio companies than I care to think about. One of our vehicles has 38 ecu's in it, half of which "talk" to one another. We had one customer with a car that ran after you shut the car off! Turned out damn audio comp. wired dvd system into factory trailer lamp circuit causing feedback into the entire system. Customer wanted it warrantied. Hot $hit. There are good and bad dealers and garages everywhere, just got to find good ones. How do us techs feel when we have to bring our vehicles in for warranty work. I've got a great dealer. Does the same quality work I do. Goes out of his way for the customer, just like we do. Listen, I've seen my share of bad techs, and we try to weed them out as fast as possible. If you want to keep your customers, you do the right thing. I deleted my truck at 116 miles, asked my dealer if he had a problem with that. No problem.
 

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I deleted my truck at 116 miles, asked my dealer if he had a problem with that. No problem.
I:agree2: I point blank asked the SW if i remove the DPF and EGR, does he have a problem. No, but warranty will be gone on those items, but won't affect issues with brakes, etc. etc. I can live with that. All that matters to me is what the SW says, and i think the tech here just wanted to think he was important. He may be to certain extent, but get educated before saying something about something you know nothing about. Champion Dodge in Gulfport has two really good techs that go out of their way, and learn things off the clock. They even ask the guys running modded trucks about those things so they know 1. what they are, and 2. what does it affect. But its too far to take it there when i need / want to most times. When i can, that's where our vehicles go, including our Honda CRV :)

Horse dead.
 

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Well my two cents on the situation is a tech should be one who is interested in finding out what is wrong with a vehicle and not threaten a customer. If a tech were to threaten me with voiding my warranty on my vehicle he had better be ready to loose some flat rate time as he is going to court. I paid for a vehicle and it came with a warranty not some smart tech who is too damn lazy to work on it just because he can't turn a profit on me. I bought it and if nowhere in the manual does it state if the dealer cannot fix in an allotted amount of time we are going to void your warranty. Hey guys I work at a dealership and it is the service writers job to deal with the customer not mine. If a vehicle is modded it is the service writer and the manufacturers job to get with the customer to discuss warranty issues - not mine. To not say you cannot know every model and recall why is it you are not going to the service writer and asking for the information - I know on any repair ticket I get from my service writer it lists any campaign that has been performed on the vehicle and if any are due. If your dealer is not using the manufacturers software to complete ROs then I would say your dealer is hiding things and costing the manufacturer customers with needless returns. I can tell also tell you that a customer is much happier educated than neglected. While yes I like to make a good return on my day if a customer comes in and has a blown head gasket I replace the head gasket - if he comes in and asked about if I removed this or that if I would turn a blind eye I would say it is not up to me but up to the service writer and manufacturer. The problem with a lot of dealerships and their techs is they are private businesses and they do not give their techs time to keep refreshed - most techs rely on those taking their updates before them to gain and advantage on the testing. I know I have worked at these dealerships. Manufacturers are getting smart in respect they are changing questions and they are moving them around. I would say if you are worried about your customer index then the service writer has unfairly put you into a situation where you have to deal with the customer. If the service writer is to incompetent to deal with the customer he should not be there, that is his job mine is to repair vehicles. And to finish if a vehicle came in that had been in an accident - my job is to diagnose the problem and if I can't to call support - plain and simple. I have been in this game for 23 years and love everyday of it. I typically turn about 19-23 hours a day and love it but hey that is me and the end to my rant.
 

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I was at the dealer the other day talking to the tech about a problem I've been having. My exhaust brake surges and "pops" under load. Of course it wouldn't do it on the way to the dealer (empty) so I didn't bother with a ride along. Anyway, we were discussing it and he asked if I had the EGR intact yet or not. I think he already knew because we're not strangers to each other, but then he asked if I had the butterfly in place or not. That actually made sense. Maybe that's causing my problem. No real way to check, but at least the guy had some kind of idea what to look at. Mod friendly and able to think for himself. Kinda rare in DC world. The guy is in his mid 40's, been a tech for quite a while, maybe his whole career, and he knows what's what. No complaints here. Kinda wish he'd break out and go into "private practice" so he could do more.
 

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foglight Im kind of against the dealers ever since i was told i needed a spark plug change due to mileage. I understand what your saying in the context of "im running a tuner and now my truck is running weird." But if i have a rear end bearing going out, or something else that is totally non related to my tuner.... well it really makes you want to deck the idiot who thinks it does.
On your diesel? oh boy....If you have a rear end bearing going out and you have performance mods, umm, 2+2.

As far as the whole 18 minutes to diagnose something, well thats just to bad, the tech could have asked before they took the job. If they find something bigger wrong with the vehicle wont that lead to more payed hours?
Techs are not legally allowed to write up vehicle issues that the customer did not complain about. You can't come in for a MIL light and I see that your front bearing is shot and fix that while I'm there.

Also, I think you may have missed the point. Cash jobs pay 1 hour of diagnosis. Warranty pays .3 hours. If you come in with performance related issues for drivetrain and you have any performance stuff on the truck, I'll shove it right back out the door. I don't have time, nor would I want to fudge with it. If the management of the dealer wishes to have more happy customers, please, feel free to suggest that they all go to salary. At that point, I'd be more than willing to sit down with you and your truck to figure out what was going on.

I:agree2: I point blank asked the SW if i remove the DPF and EGR, does he have a problem. No, but warranty will be gone on those items, but won't affect issues with brakes, etc. etc. I can live with that. All that matters to me is what the SW says, and i think the tech here just wanted to think he was important. He may be to certain extent, but get educated before saying something about something you know nothing about. Champion Dodge in Gulfport has two really good techs that go out of their way, and learn things off the clock. They even ask the guys running modded trucks about those things so they know 1. what they are, and 2. what does it affect. But its too far to take it there when i need / want to most times. When i can, that's where our vehicles go, including our Honda CRV :)

Horse dead.
You can't go by what the service writer says. If you think techs are bad, the service writers are worse. Most of them have 0 technical background. Most of them couldn't even change their own oil. I ended up with almost as many problems conveying information to a SW and then them saying something different to the customer and pissing them off.

Well my two cents on the situation is a tech should be one who is interested in finding out what is wrong with a vehicle and not threaten a customer.
I would agree. However, many customers come in with attitude.

If a tech were to threaten me with voiding my warranty on my vehicle he had better be ready to loose some flat rate time as he is going to court.
I hope you never said this to any tech, and you probably didn't because they would laugh at you. I wouldn't lose a penny. I've had people say this before about the moss/magnussen act. Nobody ever followed through and it would take so long in court, plus the fact that my deposition wouldn't even be asked for. It would be the Chrysler rep who actually denied the claim after it was escalated from a dealership decision.

It's just like the K&N air filter arguement. No, K&N filters are not bad for your engine. What IS bad, is people over oiling the crap out of them and immediately throwing them back in the car and driving around. Warranty does not cover parts when your mass air sensor hot wire gets coated in K&N recharger oil.

I paid for a vehicle and it came with a warranty not some smart tech who is too damn lazy to work on it just because he can't turn a profit on me.
That's not the way the system is set up. You want to change it, feel free to start the new system. I didn't like the system, and I left.

I bought it and if nowhere in the manual does it state if the dealer cannot fix in an allotted amount of time we are going to void your warranty.
That's not what I said. I said I'll give you the 18 minutes, and quite possibly more if I get management approval and your truck isn't modified to hell. Nobody will void a warranty becuase they don't have time. Most techs don't want to deal with headaches from non-stock vehicles that were modified by who knows and what they tied into. I'm not an expert on how the Edge computer works with the PCM. I don't know how well or not the Alpine remote car start system that Mr. Bass Box Electronics works with the vehicle.

Hey guys I work at a dealership and it is the service writers job to deal with the customer not mine. If a vehicle is modded it is the service writer and the manufacturers job to get with the customer to discuss warranty issues - not mine. To not say you cannot know every model and recall why is it you are not going to the service writer and asking for the information - I know on any repair ticket I get from my service writer it lists any campaign that has been performed on the vehicle and if any are due. If your dealer is not using the manufacturers software to complete ROs then I would say your dealer is hiding things and costing the manufacturer customers with needless returns. I can tell also tell you that a customer is much happier educated than neglected. While yes I like to make a good return on my day if a customer comes in and has a blown head gasket I replace the head gasket - if he comes in and asked about if I removed this or that if I would turn a blind eye I would say it is not up to me but up to the service writer and manufacturer.
This is a good way not to cover your own . It IS your responsibility. I have seen techs get fired for parts that were replaced under warranty that should not have. Most of those parts get sent back to the manufacturer. Now that I'm on the engineering side of things, I see these parts every once in a while. They don't just throw them away. If a regional rep investigates and finds out you repaired a vehicle that was modified and they don't like it, you are in deep .

The problem with a lot of dealerships and their techs is they are private businesses and they do not give their techs time to keep refreshed - most techs rely on those taking their updates before them to gain and advantage on the testing. I know I have worked at these dealerships. Manufacturers are getting smart in respect they are changing questions and they are moving them around. I would say if you are worried about your customer index then the service writer has unfairly put you into a situation where you have to deal with the customer. If the service writer is to incompetent to deal with the customer he should not be there, that is his job mine is to repair vehicles. And to finish if a vehicle came in that had been in an accident - my job is to diagnose the problem and if I can't to call support - plain and simple. I have been in this game for 23 years and love everyday of it. I typically turn about 19-23 hours a day and love it but hey that is me and the end to my rant.
CSI scores for techs are mostly due to comeback ratings. Yeah, the service writer has a part to play and so do the porters.
 

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There are some people in this world that deserve to be clubbed like a baby seal, sorry you found one at your local dealer. I'd just find another dealer who enjoys working more than bumping his gums. If the tech is making uneducated comments like that, chances are he hate's his job or isn't interested enough with it to learn outside of work. Luckily my techs are truck nuts and love their jobs. It makes me feel a little better knowing that.
 

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I heard a couple of techs suggest they would go to salary. I like that idea but you can't afford it. Some of the same guys also pointed out that they got paid for 25 hours in a day.

I don't like the pay per book system. The incentive is not there to spend time on it and do it right.

Before I left CA I used an independent shop that was wonderful. I once took my Acura in for a leaky radiator. Owner said that the book wanted to charge me for 3 hours to replace it and he couldn't do that in good conscience...said it was a 15 minute job and he would be happy to let me buy the rad at his cost and give it a shot. If I failed he'd take over and finish the job charging me the requisite 3 hours. It took me 10 minutes (and a half hour to drive by and pick up the rad at his cost). That is just one example but between me and the people I recommended the shop to there were many other examples of such behavior. When the timing belt broke snapped and the the valves and pistons became one I paid extra to tow it over an hour to his shop.

I've found a decent independent shop here. Fortunately I haven't had a lot of need to use him but I would if I needed it. I asked him to install my pyro thinking that meant drill, tap and screw in the unit. When I picked it up he had also wired it (to my anal expectations even) and programmed my Juice to use it. I was impressed...although I knew I also paid him shop rate for things I expected to do myself.

You can't complain about the 18 minute diagnostic time when you got paid for 25 hours of work that day. These things average out. Sometimes you spend 25 mintues to get paid for 18. Sometimes you install my rad in 10 minutes and get paid for 3 hours.


I totally respect talent. And there are some talented people in the business. My experience is that the most talented ones are not to be found at a dealership but hang up their own shingle. I am sure that there are exceptions. That is why my vehicles only see a dealership for warrantee work and see a good independent garage for anything I am paying for.
 
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