Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum banner
321 - 340 of 395 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,498 Posts
HP is a function of torque. The reason why cr trucks make closer to 1:1 HP to tq is because their pumps can fuel to 5k+ rpms.

HP = torque x rpm / 5250. Plug in 5250 as your rpm and now torque = HP.

A common rail pump will make high torque down low then keep torque high until much higher in the rpm band compared to a vp truck, this results in a 1:1 between HP and torque.

This is math and has nothing to do with being impressed.


You should be impressed by the ucc numbers, keeping up torque at 5k rpm is impressive. Cr trucks make all the torque a vp can make and then holds it from 2k to 5k rpm. Calling that anything but impressive is ignoring what is happening.
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #322 ·
HP is a function of torque. The reason why cr trucks make closer to 1:1 HP to tq is because their pumps can fuel to 5k+ rpms.

HP = torque x rpm / 5250. Plug in 5250 as your rpm and now torque = HP.

A common rail pump will make high torque down low then keep torque high until much higher in the rpm band compared to a vp truck, this results in a 1:1 between HP and torque.

This is math and has nothing to do with being impressed.


You should be impressed by the ucc numbers, keeping up torque at 5k rpm is impressive. Cr trucks make all the torque a vp can make and then holds it from 2k to 5k rpm. Calling that anything but impressive is ignoring what is happening.
Is it useable??? I am perfectly aware that trucks engines explode when their rpm's drop down into the danger zone. Sled pulling trucks survive as long as they do because they keep rpm up above 4000 rpm. if they drop into 2500 range kaboom. the engine cannot handle the stress of all that torque.

My stock connecting rods are only safe till 1800 ft lbs maybe 2000 but thats a stretch.

If a truck did 2000 horsepower and 4000 torque wouldnt the score be the same or is that not how they score at UCC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,498 Posts
Is it useable??? I am perfectly aware that trucks engines explode when their rpm's drop down into the danger zone. Sled pulling trucks survive as long as they do because they keep rpm up above 4000 rpm. if they drop into 2500 range kaboom. the engine cannot handle the stress of all that torque.

My stock connecting rods are only safe till 1800 ft lbs maybe 2000 but thats a stretch.

If a truck did 2000 horsepower and 4000 torque wouldnt the score be the same or is that not how they score at UCC.
The only thing I am trying to say is that HP is nothing more than a calculation of Torque over time AKA RPM's Has nothing to do with "danger zones"

to calculate HP you use the equation HP = Torque * RPM / 5250

so if a truck that did 3000hp 3000ft/lb then it made 3000 Ft/lb of torque at 5250 RPM. I am betting it was above 1500 ft/lb by 2700 rpm. If that is not impressive I don't know what is. I don't know how they score UCC.

In order to do 2000hp and 4000 ft/lb you would need to do that at ~2600 rpm to make the math work, gonna take a lot more Liters of displacement to do that, which I don't find impressive compared to the UCC truck.
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #325 ·
The only thing I am trying to say is that HP is nothing more than a calculation of Torque over time AKA RPM's Has nothing to do with "danger zones"

to calculate HP you use the equation HP = Torque * RPM / 5250

so if a truck that did 3000hp 3000ft/lb then it made 3000 Ft/lb of torque at 5250 RPM. I am betting it was above 1500 ft/lb by 2700 rpm. If that is not impressive I don't know what is. I don't know how they score UCC.

In order to do 2000hp and 4000 ft/lb you would need to do that at ~2600 rpm to make the math work, gonna take a lot more Liters of displacement to do that, which I don't find impressive compared to the UCC truck.
i always appreciate your input and knowledge........please dont think i dont. I have said before i am not a mathematician. my skills with math involve triangles and curves on a flat plane(which we learned about in elementary school). The high number is impressive i will admit. I simply find a streetable truck with 1000-1500 hp more impressive than an engine that is realistically 1 and done! Could they repeat that same run 10 times??? 20 times??? Firepunk I know made 99 passes with their dakota with billet block etc etc. that to me was impressive becase it survived the season. Its all conjecture at this point , what they did was impressive, i just wonder if it could be done more than once????
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #326 ·
Oh I still have love for the old vp. I ran a monster stage 2 vp. I've been looking for a truck with a cracked block because I have a 6.7 block to do a 6.7 vp. If making power with a vp was easy why is there almost no 9 sec 1/4 vps? A 12mm p7100 has made 1500 hp. A rotary injection pump can't force that much fuel. Do you have your dyno sheet from when you dynoed before?
I have dyno sheet with 120 bullydog injectors, did 470/1000+ will post shortly!
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #328 · (Edited)
These are from a long time ago!!! I had one from dynomite with 150 edge jammers where i did 503/1035 lost it.
i also had one from Power shop where i did 480 with 120 bullydogs. cant find it!(its the 2nd one)

Notice the one from Dynomite was from '05.LOL! I was running 50 pounds of boost back then because when they set my wastegate at 35 pounds i kept blowing my headgasket!
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #329 ·
Do you run turbo blankets and if so why?
Yes i do run turbo blankets for quicker spool up and to keep the engine bay cooler so intake air is cooler into air filter. which in turn increases the oxygen in the air/fuel mixture. thats whats adding power not the hot engine?????

If you didnt run heat control on your manifold and turbo blankets you would make less horsepower. The heat control essentially aids in the evacuation of the hot gasses coming out of the engine as it forces those gasses out the tail pipe rather than dissipate into the air of engine bay.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,498 Posts
What Carb is saying is that Turbo blankets work by keeping all the heat, AKA energy, in the turbine, rather than in the engine bay. This heat ,aka energy, spins the turbine. Cooler engine bay temps is just a nice side effect of the important part that they use in marketing. The energy has to go someplace and we want to keep it in the turbine, that's why a turbo blanket works

the important point is Heat = Energy. More energy is what you are after.

you need to separate out Charge Temp and Coolant Temp.

Yes Charge temp is effected by coolant temp, but not as much as you are thinking, your innercooler and water/meth setup effect air temp a whole lot more. The air spends a relatively short amount of time in the engine so heat soak is not as great as you might think provided there is enough airflow through the engine bay, hence the big fans for a dyno. yes it can be an issue, but only in very specific situations that you have no way of knowing if you will encounter.

there are 2 things you are overlooking

1. It is %100 possible to have charge temps too cold if your tune does not advance timing enough to keep the combustion event at the right spot in the stroke. The OEM timing curve will advance up to 8-10* of timing with a cold engine to keep the combustion even in the right spot related to TDC, they didn't do this because they are dumb. The colder you make your charge air the more timing advance you need. Since you have no control over your timing you are likely loosing out on HP as a result of super cold charge temps causing over retardation of the combustion event related to TDC.

2. any heat you suck out of the cylinders via coolant is lost energy AKA hp that could be put to the rear tires. The bigger the difference in coolant temp vs cylinder temp will result in MORE energy being transferred out of the cylinder and into the coolant then out the radiator. you are thinking this is good because cold air = dense air, but you are very likely loosing more HP as a result of sucking heat out of the engine than you are by gaining more dense air.

every MM3 worth of diesel has a specific amount of Energy, whether that energy gets put to the tires or out the radiator can make a big difference in torque and thus hp. There is a give and take to everything, but I am guessing your super low coolant temps are taking a TON of energy out of the motor. It is impossible to know what coolant temp results in the right balance, but I would wager it much closer to 200* f than 160* f.


Thermo management is an important part of racing, generally speaking they try and keep the engine as hot as possible without causing melting, F1 engines go so far as to increase coolant pressure to prevent coolant boiling until a higher coolant temp. air intake's are designed in a manner to keep the charge air at the desired temp and density for the tuning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,616 Posts
Very well put and I would agree with 100% of what has been said.

There’s a lot of science behind making an engine perform and believe it or not simple things like fuel temperature and jacket water temperature play a huge role with engine specs and certification. (Just FYI, I’ve been in this area for a while)

EPA has required parameters as such to be included and within spec prior to shipment otherwise the manufacture is liable for fines and suit.

All of that said, you will make more power with a 190-200 thermostat than with a 160. You can argue heat soak all day and I will join you in saying that there is a healthy balance in making sure that the engine is warm but not too warm. Even at that, unless you plan to be on the dyno for multiple hours on end I don’t see the point other than losing hp.

If you are that worried and think that a lower jacket temp will help then why not just pull the thermostat?

Lastly, I want to provoke thought by asking why sled pullers warm their motors up prior to pulling? Many of which don’t even have cooling systems and are running filled blocks.

Surely they know they are heat soaking their blocks?!
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #332 · (Edited)
Very well put and I would agree with 100% of what has been said.

There’s a lot of science behind making an engine perform and believe it or not simple things like fuel temperature and jacket water temperature play a huge role with engine specs and certification. (Just FYI, I’ve been in this area for a while)

EPA has required parameters as such to be included and within spec prior to shipment otherwise the manufacture is liable for fines and suit.

All of that said, you will make more power with a 190-200 thermostat than with a 160. You can argue heat soak all day and I will join you in saying that there is a healthy balance in making sure that the engine is warm but not too warm. Even at that, unless you plan to be on the dyno for multiple hours on end I don’t see the point other than losing hp.

If you are that worried and think that a lower jacket temp will help then why not just pull the thermostat?

Lastly, I want to provoke thought by asking why sled pullers warm their motors up prior to pulling? Many of which don’t even have cooling systems and are running filled blocks.

Surely they know they are heat soaking their blocks?!
Way back in the day........Lenny Reed told me he would not warranty bhis work if i didnt let the engine oil pressure come down which takes warming up??? There are more than one reason to warm up an engine.

Also in regards to timing as was stated the edge and Scheid pump both add timing so explain how that all factors in to engine temperature for ignition timing based on temperature?????

Why do the manufacturers even use a intercooler at all. Why not simply run a hot as possible engine for the all powerful hot as hell engine????

Take the oxygen away from the intake charge is where you lose power???

Everybody remember shop in school and learning how to use a cutting torch. What did you get when you turned on the acetalyne without oxygen. Black soot and a cold flame. What happened when you turned up the OXYGEN!!! Fire.......hot fire and power. Take the oxygen out of the equation as in a hot air charge you get black soot low energy mess of puke!!!
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #333 ·
Compounds are going on!!! Thermostat is staying same. Still going to use Mishimoto Liquid chill and their intercooler. Plus Redline water wetter to keep water temps down. I guess you can all call me hard headed or ignorant but i believe what i believe and the dyno doesn't lie. Scheid stage 2 will be installed with lines before Dyno day. So your guesses with single turbo need to be upgraded to my new setup !!! I know you all wanted to see what single turbo put down but truck was in jeopardy of being stolen and needed to get moved. So to Diesel Services it went for insurance repairs and power upgrades. Most likley will run with DDP injectors unless Infinites show up, its been 5 weeks since i ordered so they should be close. The new setup, closest guess over 900hp gets $500 gift cert at vendor of choice! If you guess below 900 there is no prize. I will be adding ice to my WM tanks. More oxygen!!! Hotter flame. Faster turning turbo???? More horsepower??? My take on it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,616 Posts
Way back in the day........Lenny Reed told me he would not warranty bhis work if i didnt let the engine oil pressure come down which takes warming up??? There are more than one reason to warm up an engine.

Also in regards to timing as was stated the edge and Scheid pump both add timing so explain how that all factors in to engine temperature for ignition timing based on temperature?????

Why do the manufacturers even use a intercooler at all. Why not simply run a hot as possible engine for the all powerful hot as hell engine????

Take the oxygen away from the intake charge is where you lose power???

Everybody remember shop in school and learning how to use a cutting torch. What did you get when you turned on the acetalyne without oxygen. Black soot and a cold flame. What happened when you turned up the OXYGEN!!! Fire.......hot fire and power. Take the oxygen out of the equation as in a hot air charge you get black soot low energy mess of puke!!!
Oil temp is important and so is heat in the cylinders.

Lavon had a hard time getting their UCC truck to light on the dyno due to not enough heat built up in the engine and too much fuel. There are several other instance on film of pullers and dyno trucks needing some heat in the engine prior to making a run or even being able to decently move.

Injection timing will be variable but probably maxed at ~30 degrees early on in the run due to the Edge and pump.

No such thing as ignition timing on a Diesel engine (Diesel engines work off of compression). I think you’re getting confused here.

SCACs, ATAACs, and in general CACs are all designed to bring down IMAT which in turn generally results in an increase in IMAP which is your end goal in creating a denser charge air. As your air density increases your power will also increase to an extent. Important to note though that a denser charge air can be the result of really anything (injectables, turbos, etc..)

In a complete different ball field you have the actual heat that is within the motor. Again, being that we are dealing with a compression motor we need heat and ultimately pressure in order to create ignition. The more heat and pressure in the cylinder the bigger boom. For this reason (and others) common rail engines have what’s called a pilot stage where a small bit of fuel is injected super early in the compression stroke creating a bit of heat allowing for a larger main injection event and more complete burn of a larger density of fuel.

Being that the vp only has a single injection event you want this event well placed. With the Edge you have 0 control over this event.

Getting off track but the formula for your success looks something like:

Fuel
Dense air
Warm motor
 

·
Premium Member
2000 Dodge Truck 4x4 Automatic
Joined
·
1,037 Posts
Discussion Starter · #336 ·
Oil temp is important and so is heat in the cylinders.

Lavon had a hard time getting their UCC truck to light on the dyno due to not enough heat built up in the engine and too much fuel. There are several other instance on film of pullers and dyno trucks needing some heat in the engine prior to making a run or even being able to decently move.

Injection timing will be variable but probably maxed at ~30 degrees early on in the run due to the Edge and pump.

No such thing as ignition timing on a Diesel engine (Diesel engines work off of compression). I think you’re getting confused here.

SCACs, ATAACs, and in general CACs are all designed to bring down IMAT which in turn generally results in an increase in IMAP which is your end goal in creating a denser charge air. As your air density increases your power will also increase to an extent. Important to note though that a denser charge air can be the result of really anything (injectables, turbos, etc..)

In a complete different ball field you have the actual heat that is within the motor. Again, being that we are dealing with a compression motor we need heat and ultimately pressure in order to create ignition. The more heat and pressure in the cylinder the bigger boom. For this reason (and others) common rail engines have what’s called a pilot stage where a small bit of fuel is injected super early in the compression stroke creating a bit of heat allowing for a larger main injection event and more complete burn of a larger density of fuel.

Being that the vp only has a single injection event you want this event well placed. With the Edge you have 0 control over this event.

Getting off track but the formula for your success looks something like:

Fuel
Dense air
Warm motor
I can agree with warm motor but not hot! I draw my line in between the two. I also agree that too cool of a charge may retard combustion of fuel. So far in my experimentation i have only run into this a couple time with water meth. The norm is a massive spike in horsepower upon spray of methanol and water. I will of course before i hit rollers try my theory of iced WM injection and see if it in fact retards combustion or not!
 
321 - 340 of 395 Posts
Top