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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So it begins, January 4/2013, a fine but wicked cold Saturday. -40 degrees celcius or so, not unusual for winter time in Saskatchewan, eh? Finalized the deal on my 2013 Ram 2500 Laramie, had the dealer plug the truck in a few hours prior to me picking it up... Although, I'm sure the truck has seen worse before this day of ownership came forth- does a tree falling in the middle of the forest make a sound?
That evening, went over to fire up the truck; normal accessory noises, grid heater cycle, etc. followed by a faint click... Batteries probably needing a good cuddle beside the fire, laid out on a polar bear rug? I think not.
Boosted the truck, it fired up and idled away. First thing I noticed was the awful yellow icon glowing on the guage cluster, taunting me- wanting to befriend me for the next few weeks, the CEL as I'm sure you might have guessed...
Salesman tells me this is due in part to "low battery voltage", something that is normal, had several do the same thing weeks before when being moved to clear snow on the lot. Says that when I bring it back in on Monday (for a few little things before I take it home, nothing of importance, really) they will clear the code and I will be on my way!
Okay, off and running like the slowest, coldest, frozen herd of turtles you have ever seen... I drove the truck out on the highway for a short bit to make sure the batteries will keep a charge and there are no other surprises awaiting, at this point I'm a little tired of seeing all the ice and snow build up on the windshield and wipers, etc. (buildup that needed a hammer and chisel to clear, perhaps a pickaxe?) So I set my sights on the local car wash, bad idea and something I would never do, being as finicky and caring for my vehicles as I am, I pull in, leave the truck run (the batteries, don't forget the batteries!) And start slowly rinsing it down and breaking away at the ice and snow like a mofo! Now, that part is done, I carry on by wiping/drying some things on the truck, attempting to give ample time in the warmth. Pull the truck out of the wash bay and back into the frozen abyss we call Saskatchewan- I can hear deathly cracking within seconds, water becoming ice, ice becoming Ram, Ram becoming a problem??
Out of curiosity, I kill the engine. Attempt to restart truck. Truck restarts. Truck do good... I do bad. DEF guage immediately shows empty and I receive some hate mail from the truck via the EVIC, along the lines of "I hate you, b*tch. DEF system is facked up, SEE DEALER!" Don't quote me on that, but it's pretty close!
Well, I set off on another spirited highway journey in hopes that something will shake/rattle loose (or tight? Ha) to no avail. I bring it back to the house some time later, try restarting, leave it on high idle to build some heat. Half an hour later, I return to the Ram to see that the DEF guage is now showing 3/4 of a tank! Hoorah! Celebration came a little early, once again I shut it off and found upon restarting I was back to square one- but with a new message from the Ram: "X number of km's to limp mode, you're screwed now! Muahaha!" Okay maybe it didn't laugh, but my whole situation has since then turned into a laugh- a very dry, sarcastic and evil laugh.
Moving along to the following Monday morning, I bring the truck in, end up leaving it there until near 2pm. Dealer tells me maybe it will thaw, maybe it needs this new reflash (specifically to do with the DEF system?). Returned to find it being no better, giving me the option to leave it there for two and a half weeks while I return to work in another city a couple hours away with no vehicle in the mean time? You mean to tell me I just paid for this awesome shiny new turd and I can't even drive it??
I can also take the truck back with me and hope that this tempermental, temporarily totalitarian turd sorts out its issue(s? ) on my way back- which I opted for.
They tell me they will order some parts for it but do not seem to know what's wrong??? Well, apparently neither does the Ram nor I.
I make the joke/not joking of pulling parts off of another truck on the lot, they look at me with a serious expression and say they cannot do that.
The Ram drove and ran flawlessly, albeit the countdown to "self destruct mode" and the stupid CEL still rearing its ugly color on the magnificent guage cluster. Called back to the dealer when myself and the Ram were 3/4 of the way back home to our destination, to report no changes.... 174km to "self destruct mode" at this point. They tell me to try adding some DEF to the tank for curiosity's sake, I spend the $18.23 or whatever it was and proceed to "top up the tank". Within seconds it comes spilling out the filler neck, I'm thinking to myself "Yeah, its definitely full, I must really look like an idiot right now trying to fill something that's already full..." Just then an older gentleman walks by and gives me a compliment on the truck- I'm now standing there, bent over awkwardly, trying to wipe frozen urea carefully from the side of the Ram, once again thinking "Wow, I am an idiot."
No change in distance on self destruct countdown nor fluid level on guage... Surprise!
Skipping ahead (thankfully- I'm sure you're thinking), I shuffle vehicles around in driveway and park the Ram in my NOT heated garage, turn the portable propane heater on and proceed to try and thaw this thing out for the next two days. Once again, no change. Back to work for two weeks, calling the dealer every few days for an update on parts + my accessories I wanted to order (Ouuu shiny!), finally came to the conclusion to take it to a local dealer near me to see if they could diagnose anything differently. Brought it in last Thursday, they looked it over that afternoon and Friday as well... Sadly they called me back with the same diagnosis (well, similar) as dealer #1. Dealer 1 and 2 talked, turns out they were looking to order the same part (DEF module), dealer 1 was giving me the 28th of January as an ETA from the beginning which is why I went to dealer 2, dealer 1 said they would ship to dealer 2 if I wanted to leave the Ram there. Dealer 2 was telling me part is backordered -86 at this point. I knew I had accessories on the way and would go back the following week to the town of dealer 1 for that reason so I would take my chances. Planned to leave truck at dealer 2 until this past Wednesday because dealer 1 now had an ETA of the 22nd to make things sound even better. Confused yet? Yeah, me too.
So I take it upon myself (pissed off to infinite and beyond at this point) to get a rental vehicle from Saturday until Wednesday so I can continue work. Wednesday (first day off) rolls around, 615 doll hairs later (crazy, right? That was WITH a discount), I drop the rental off and call dealer 1 to find out the ETA for the part is now THE 29TH OF JANUARY! What the ever living #*@&! They tell me to call the Chrysler complaint line.
I pick up the Ram, DEF refill indicator is off and there is no countdown. Guage still shows empty and our little glowing yellow friend is still present. Okay, on my way to location 1, an hour and a half drive, I talk to dealer 1 again and am told once again to call the complaint line in hopes they'll take the initiative to speed up shipping, in general, look after me somehow.
So I call and start a claim, tell them everything up to this point and how much of an inconvenience this all has become, not to mention shelling out for my own rental and making a payment on the truck and NOT BEING ABLE TO DRIVE IT FOR 2 AND A HALF WEEKS! I tell them that the dealer will not even remove the part from a new vehicle on the lot without Chrysler's push to do so? I basically get laughed at, explaining that its up to the dealer to make that decision not Chrysler... I explain this to dealer 1, not much said about it now other than they won't do it.
Great.
Now I'm about 50km's out of location 1, still on the phone with Chrysler and the truck dings, the DEF indicator light and message returns, now saying "320km to go before meltdown". What the @$*# is going on.... I had dropped it off at dealer 2 with approx 125km to go, picked it up and it showed nothing other than guage at empty and CEL on. Now it starts again? It may as well say "LOL you're an idiot" on the EVIC at this point!
Fffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!
Screw the rest of the story. In a nutshell, had my accessories put on Thursday/Friday and picked it up. Dealer told me that the ETA for the part was pushed to expedited or whatever the hell by Chrysler but still made no difference, it is supposed to be at dealer 1 by the 28th or 29th, still. So I took the truck and made plans to bring it back to dealer 2 on Monday because once again I need to go back to work soon. So once the part gets to dealer 1 they'll send it to 2.
And everyone lived happily ever after, the big bad wolf huffed and puffed and Chrysler can lick my butt. The end.



*UPDATE* 02/10/2014
My baby is back in my possession, picked her up this afternoon from Dealer #2. DEF module/pump was finally received late last week. They drained tank, refilled with DEF, installed part and all seems to be good again!
I've had a rental Ram 1500 for two weeks now paid for by Chrysler, and faxed off papers to Chrysler today to try and get reimbursement for the rental I paid for out of my own pocket a short time ago... We will see where this goes. I'm still out my regular payments on the truck, they tell me they will not cover anything like this.
Hopefully my long winded post/thread will help someone else in a predicament similar.
 

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Im getting ready to buy a '14 Ram 2500 but the more I visit this site and read about all the problems with these trucks, it makes me want to run the other way. Seems like they all have problems with something. I want a new truck so I don't have to worry about stuff but that seems like the opposite with the rams. I love the new trucks but getting cold feet.
 

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Ok...I don't know celcius, but that sounds really cold! Man, have you had a bad time! I just bought a 13. I hope this ends well for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The majority of things you'll hear on the internet will be problem related. It's the people in search of solutions, answers and others that share the same predicaments. Just keep that in mind.
I came from a 2012 Cummins and my old man also has a 2012 Cummins, I didn't want a new one originally, I somehow got talked into it.
Everything that is different from the '12 to the '13 is for the better (not that anything was wrong with '12)! Except the DEF which is the main reason I wanted another '12 LOL. It was much the same reasoning, heard so many negatives and problems related to DEF, not even from Ram but from Ford and GM.
 

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As stated, when you come on these forums, you'll hear "mostly" from those who are having issues and are looking for answers or wondering if this is the norm...There are also quite a few of us in here that have had zero issues with ours, or just a few.

I've had mine since June and it has a little over 9700 miles on it...It set out yesterday, not in car port...temp got down to -1 with wind chill of about 5 below, not as cold as others, but it fired up and I drove with zero issues. IN WV, over thanksgiving, it set out and temps got down to -9 with wind chill and again, never the first issue...just saying, there are some legit problems that we're hoping Ram/Chrysler are going to make right for their owners and then there are just as many, if not more that are having no issues at all....

Heck, same things could happen with a brand new Ford, Chevy or GM....go for it and hope for the best:thumbsup:
 

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Wow tjwb, I don't know what your real job is but you should be a writer. Something in a horror / comedy line. As far as your problem with your truck...all I can say is good luck. Hope they get it figured out real soon!
Sledneck155..as bad as this story is it is not the only story. I came from an 07 6.7 and yes it had some teething problems. But I came to really like that truck, did a few little things to it to make it mine. But it came time to upgrade and like you I looked around. I bought a 13 2500 6.7 cclb 4x4 in Oct. They got the truck in May so I was given a very good deal. Picked up the truck Thursday night, had the hitch installed on Friday, hooked up the 5th wheel on Saturday and made a bee line for Phoenix. The truck gave me 11.97 mpg towing and I am at 17.52 running around in this crazy traffic, all hand calculated. I love this truck and could not be happier. It is so far advanced from my 07 in all categories. Do your research, take your time and make your choice. These Ram's are a great choice.
 

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Im getting ready to buy a '14 Ram 2500 but the more I visit this site and read about all the problems with these trucks, it makes me want to run the other way. Seems like they all have problems with something. I want a new truck so I don't have to worry about stuff but that seems like the opposite with the rams. I love the new trucks but getting cold feet.
If the other way is looking at a Ford, you better do some research. Having owned a Ford, I sometimes read the Powerstroke forum. Lots of problems. Especially with the fuel delivery system, then Ford denies warranty, says it owner error, and you are just plain out some serious $$$$. I agree with NCHauler, many only complain or seek what is best for this, that & whatever. I understand this is the 2013 & up section, but my 2012 has been flawless & I have zero complaints. 17 months & 13,600 miles later, I'm still as happy as I was on day one. Best wishes.:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Does anyone know where I can get the Cliff Notes for this post?


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-Fackin cold outside
-Bought new truck, DEF guage started showing empty after washing truck, just hours after picking up
-Dealer did reflash, searched for needle in haystack
-Did not find needle
-Tried another dealer, same result, part ordered by dealer #1
-Called Chrysler complaint line
-DEF module still not here
-Paid for rental out of own pocket for 4 days so far
-DEF module still out there somewhere
-Truck is still facked
-3 weeks later, truck is still facked
-Going to ask Chrysler for a kiss soon, I like being kissed when I'm gettin #@&$ed!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I've had about the same luck as you man. Sorry to hear, and I hope they can fix your truck. But mine, well I am just hoping to push for the Lemon Law here soon. Since October mine has done nothing but go back and forth to the dealer. I've tried 3 different ones, and none of them can seem to fix it. Same 'Service DEF system, 5mph max speed in xxx miles' message. 4 times in the shop, and over 30 days now - and I won't be getting it back this time until Feb 14th at the soonest... So 51 total days out of 8months of owning it. Seems like my money is well spent (sarcasm). Thank goodness I have been talking to Chrysler since the 2nd time it happened, this last time it happened I was out of town 400miles from home and only 120 miles until limp mode. After about 2 hours on the phone, they gave me a rental for free until the shop is completed with my truck and they are going to push my case to legal and get me out of this truck. I love the truck, but the emissions system (DEF in particular) is killin me. I think I will just go for a 1st/2nd gen and build it up. Or get a jeep... Anyway, I know how you are feeling (about the shiny polished turd you paid for). Best of luck to you and just keep a record of everything, in case you need it.
Rediculous! This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid/prevent if at all possible.
I hope everything goes a little more speedy for ya and as well as you're wanting it to!

I have to ask, with those messages on the EVIC or even without, did the truck actually go into limp mode? I'm almost curious enough to try it on mine, run it to 0km to limp mode, shut it down, restart it and see if it will sense that the tank is still full and run like normal or reset the infamous countdown???
It's weird that the message went away, came back, changed, etc. on mine...

Kind of comforting (in a sick, twisted, shameful sort of way) lol to know that someone else is experiencing very similar problems... Best of luck to ya man!
 

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If the other way is looking at a Ford, you better do some research. Having. wned a Ford, I sometimes read the Powerstroke forum. Lots of problems. Especially with the fuel delivery system, then Ford denies warranty, says it owner error, and you are just plain out some serious $$$$. I agree with NCHauler, many only complain or seek what is best for this, that & whatever. I understand this is the 2013 & up section, but my 2012 has been flawless & I have zero complaints. 17 months & 13,600 miles later, I'm still as happy as I was on day one. Best wishes.:thumbsup:
This is why it is so important to carry insurance for repairs not covered by the dealer- bad fuel, etc. My 2012 has been flawless as well. 41k and never a hiccup. I got a good one.
 

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Rediculous! This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid/prevent if at all possible.
I hope everything goes a little more speedy for ya and as well as you're wanting it to!

I have to ask, with those messages on the EVIC or even without, did the truck actually go into limp mode? I'm almost curious enough to try it on mine, run it to 0km to limp mode, shut it down, restart it and see if it will sense that the tank is still full and run like normal or reset the infamous countdown???
It's weird that the message went away, came back, changed, etc. on mine...

Kind of comforting (in a sick, twisted, shameful sort of way) lol to know that someone else is experiencing very similar problems... Best of luck to ya man!
So are you going to focus on the small number of people who are having problems and assume the worst, or are you going to also consider the majority who are not having problems and realize the incidents are isolated?
 

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It sucks. Plain and simple. I think I can speak for everyone that your pain is felt. But again, this is an Internet forum, where people mostly go in search of answers to problems. That said, it will seem as if every one of these trucks is a glorious turd. Such is not the case. Sure there are anomalies, coincidences, etc, but its not just Ram.
I hope your DEF issue gets sorted quickly, and you, too, can enjoy many trouble free miles. They really are great trucks. GM has great trucks, too, and so does Ford. But I think Ford only built two or three good ones...
Best of luck!
 

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Kenny Rogers wrote a song about situations much like the one you're in now and it went something like, "ya gotta know when to fold emm"!


So it begins, January 4/2013, a fine but wicked cold Saturday. -40 degrees celcius or so, not unusual for winter time in Saskatchewan, eh? Finalized the deal on my 2013 Ram 2500 Laramie, had the dealer plug the truck in a few hours prior to me picking it up... Although, I'm sure the truck has seen worse before this day of ownership came forth- does a tree falling in the middle of the forest make a sound?
That evening, went over to fire up the truck; normal accessory noises, grid heater cycle, etc. followed by a faint click... Batteries probably needing a good cuddle beside the fire, laid out on a polar bear rug? I think not.
Boosted the truck, it fired up and idled away. First thing I noticed was the awful yellow icon glowing on the guage cluster, taunting me- wanting to befriend me for the next few weeks, the CEL as I'm sure you might have guessed...
Salesman tells me this is due in part to "low battery voltage", something that is normal, had several do the same thing weeks before when being moved to clear snow on the lot. Says that when I bring it back in on Monday (for a few little things before I take it home, nothing of importance, really) they will clear the code and I will be on my way!
Okay, off and running like the slowest, coldest, frozen herd of turtles you have ever seen... I drove the truck out on the highway for a short bit to make sure the batteries will keep a charge and there are no other surprises awaiting, at this point I'm a little tired of seeing all the ice and snow build up on the windshield and wipers, etc. (buildup that needed a hammer and chisel to clear, perhaps a pickaxe?) So I set my sights on the local car wash, bad idea and something I would never do, being as finicky and caring for my vehicles as I am, I pull in, leave the truck run (the batteries, don't forget the batteries!) And start slowly rinsing it down and breaking away at the ice and snow like a mofo! Now, that part is done, I carry on by wiping/drying some things on the truck, attempting to give ample time in the warmth. Pull the truck out of the wash bay and back into the frozen abyss we call Saskatchewan- I can hear deathly cracking within seconds, water becoming ice, ice becoming Ram, Ram becoming a problem??
Out of curiosity, I kill the engine. Attempt to restart truck. Truck restarts. Truck do good... I do bad. DEF guage immediately shows empty and I receive some hate mail from the truck via the EVIC, along the lines of "I hate you, b*tch. DEF system is facked up, SEE DEALER!" Don't quote me on that, but it's pretty close!
Well, I set off on another spirited highway journey in hopes that something will shake/rattle loose (or tight? Ha) to no avail. I bring it back to the house some time later, try restarting, leave it on high idle to build some heat. Half an hour later, I return to the Ram to see that the DEF guage is now showing 3/4 of a tank! Hoorah! Celebration came a little early, once again I shut it off and found upon restarting I was back to square one- but with a new message from the Ram: "X number of km's to limp mode, you're screwed now! Muahaha!" Okay maybe it didn't laugh, but my whole situation has since then turned into a laugh- a very dry, sarcastic and evil laugh.
Moving along to the following Monday morning, I bring the truck in, end up leaving it there until near 2pm. Dealer tells me maybe it will thaw, maybe it needs this new reflash (specifically to do with the DEF system?). Returned to find it being no better, giving me the option to leave it there for two and a half weeks while I return to work in another city a couple hours away with no vehicle in the mean time? You mean to tell me I just paid for this awesome shiny new turd and I can't even drive it??
I can also take the truck back with me and hope that this tempermental, temporarily totalitarian turd sorts out its issue(s? ) on my way back- which I opted for.
They tell me they will order some parts for it but do not seem to know what's wrong??? Well, apparently neither does the Ram nor I.
I make the joke/not joking of pulling parts off of another truck on the lot, they look at me with a serious expression and say they cannot do that.
The Ram drove and ran flawlessly, albeit the countdown to "self destruct mode" and the stupid CEL still rearing its ugly color on the magnificent guage cluster. Called back to the dealer when myself and the Ram were 3/4 of the way back home to our destination, to report no changes.... 174km to "self destruct mode" at this point. They tell me to try adding some DEF to the tank for curiosity's sake, I spend the $18.23 or whatever it was and proceed to "top up the tank". Within seconds it comes spilling out the filler neck, I'm thinking to myself "Yeah, its definitely full, I must really look like an idiot right now trying to fill something that's already full..." Just then an older gentleman walks by and gives me a compliment on the truck- I'm now standing there, bent over awkwardly, trying to wipe frozen urea carefully from the side of the Ram, once again thinking "Wow, I am an idiot."
No change in distance on self destruct countdown nor fluid level on guage... Surprise!
Skipping ahead (thankfully- I'm sure you're thinking), I shuffle vehicles around in driveway and park the Ram in my NOT heated garage, turn the portable propane heater on and proceed to try and thaw this thing out for the next two days. Once again, no change. Back to work for two weeks, calling the dealer every few days for an update on parts + my accessories I wanted to order (Ouuu shiny!), finally came to the conclusion to take it to a local dealer near me to see if they could diagnose anything differently. Brought it in last Thursday, they looked it over that afternoon and Friday as well... Sadly they called me back with the same diagnosis (well, similar) as dealer #1. Dealer 1 and 2 talked, turns out they were looking to order the same part (DEF module), dealer 1 was giving me the 28th of January as an ETA from the beginning which is why I went to dealer 2, dealer 1 said they would ship to dealer 2 if I wanted to leave the Ram there. Dealer 2 was telling me part is backordered -86 at this point. I knew I had accessories on the way and would go back the following week to the town of dealer 1 for that reason so I would take my chances. Planned to leave truck at dealer 2 until this past Wednesday because dealer 1 now had an ETA of the 22nd to make things sound even better. Confused yet? Yeah, me too.
So I take it upon myself (pissed off to infinite and beyond at this point) to get a rental vehicle from Saturday until Wednesday so I can continue work. Wednesday (first day off) rolls around, 615 doll hairs later (crazy, right? That was WITH a discount), I drop the rental off and call dealer 1 to find out the ETA for the part is now THE 29TH OF JANUARY! What the ever living #*@&! They tell me to call the Chrysler complaint line.
I pick up the Ram, DEF refill indicator is off and there is no countdown. Guage still shows empty and our little glowing yellow friend is still present. Okay, on my way to location 1, an hour and a half drive, I talk to dealer 1 again and am told once again to call the complaint line in hopes they'll take the initiative to speed up shipping, in general, look after me somehow.
So I call and start a claim, tell them everything up to this point and how much of an inconvenience this all has become, not to mention shelling out for my own rental and making a payment on the truck and NOT BEING ABLE TO DRIVE IT FOR 2 AND A HALF WEEKS! I tell them that the dealer will not even remove the part from a new vehicle on the lot without Chrysler's push to do so? I basically get laughed at, explaining that its up to the dealer to make that decision not Chrysler... I explain this to dealer 1, not much said about it now other than they won't do it.
Great.
Now I'm about 50km's out of location 1, still on the phone with Chrysler and the truck dings, the DEF indicator light and message returns, now saying "320km to go before meltdown". What the @$*# is going on.... I had dropped it off at dealer 2 with approx 125km to go, picked it up and it showed nothing other than guage at empty and CEL on. Now it starts again? It may as well say "LOL you're an idiot" on the EVIC at this point!
Fffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!
Screw the rest of the story. In a nutshell, had my accessories put on Thursday/Friday and picked it up. Dealer told me that the ETA for the part was pushed to expedited or whatever the hell by Chrysler but still made no difference, it is supposed to be at dealer 1 by the 28th or 29th, still. So I took the truck and made plans to bring it back to dealer 2 on Monday because once again I need to go back to work soon. So once the part gets to dealer 1 they'll send it to 2.
And everyone lived happily ever after, the big bad wolf huffed and puffed and Chrysler can lick my butt. The end.

 

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This is why I decided to buy a new 2012. Didnt want to deal with DEF and I am very happy with it.

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I had a 2012 from January to June...no problems at all, but difference between 2012 and 13' is A LOT and that's comparing the 2012 3500 DRW/ CC/LB/ with 4:10 in Longhorn trim..it was also High Output Cummins....Now I have the truck in my sig....DEF is a NON-ISSUE...over 9700 miles and my mpg empty is almost 3 mpg MORE than the 2010 3500 DRW CC/LB/with 4:10 in Laramie Trim and the 2012.... just a little more mpg when towing also....and THIS truck is the FIRST dually I've EVER had that topped I26 going from TN into NC at 60 mph, a VERY LONG curvy 6 yo 7% grade....05 Chevy 3500 Dually D/A couldn't do it, 07.5 Chevy 3500 Dually D/A couldn't do it, nor could the 10 or the 12 Ram...BUT, this truck did it...Just one of the test I put them through...course this truck has 385HP and 850ftlb of TQ and GVWR 14,000# and GCWR of 37,600#.....

So, really purchasing a 12 over a 13 or 14 using DEF or reading issues on here isn't a very good excuse for NOT getting a new truck...Just as many HAVEN'T had issues...as stated, about all you'll see, most of the time are those having issues and wanting others to know about it....I loved the 10 and the 12, both GREAT looking trucks, but the 13 and 14 3500 SRW and Dually came SOOOO far from 2012 to 13, there is hardly any comparison...it is what it is, and having owned both, drove over the same roads as daily driver and towed same 5er over the same mountains....13 wins hands down...speaking from actual experience...no hear-say or he said/she said.....
 

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Kenny Rogers wrote a song about situations much like the one you're in now and it went something like, "ya gotta know when to fold emm"! posted by DaddyRabbit:

Yepper, that is exactly what I did with FOMOCO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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