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Discussion Starter #1
I am a little confused about my result of the injector return fuel test. At idle fca plugged in 100ml per 1minute. That would be ok. With fca unplugged and 1000rpm I get 300ml per 15 sec. Should be max. 180ml in 30sec?! Can anyone help please? And yes, i'm only measure the injectors.
 

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:welcome:

If you are sure testing only injectors, you have an issue.
Check connector tubes torque repeat.

"Maximum allowable leakage for all injectors combined is 160 ml per minute: checked when coolant temperature is above 180 degrees, 1200 rpm and fuel rail pressure is equal to 20,305 PSI.

It takes about 4000 PSI rail pressure in order for the injectors to deliver fuel for starting.
Any injector contributing more than 40 ml is excessive. IE: if total leakage is 200 ml and blocking off number one injector reduces the total leakage to 160 ml, cylinder number one injector has excessive leakage and is bad.
If you have a no start condition, maximum allowable return is 90 ml per minute at 200 rpm cranking speed, be careful not to over heat the starter during testing.
Damaged or loose high pressure injector connectors can cause excessive leakage.
Excessive leakage usually results in a starting issue, which could occur hot or cold, but usually occurs hot because the fuel is thinner when hot."
 

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Tell us the life story of the injectors? OEM factory line, miles, fuel filtration, any water, 100% life on German quality diesel?

Rough running, hard starting, white or black smoke out the exhaust, white smoke out the crankcase vent tube.

Run a cylinder contribution test, I like to compare that with individual injector leak tests.

NEVER replace questionable injectors without running cylinder compression tests on these, may be putting $500 injector into dead hole that can eat a new injector like a chunk of gold.

Pull oil sample and send in to oil lab for diesel contamination in the oil, leaking nozzles are a fast engine killer on these. Leaking nozzles are a dirty bed partner of leaking return valves/connector tubes. EU car owners love their oil tests.

Engine testing is like investigating adultery, 1+1+1+1 =s winner winner she's out eating chicken dinner with another guy in bed.

In Germany? Only one choice for replacements, call Big Bang the Real Top Gun Bosch boys
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi all,
the truck configuration is also in the footnote. but here: bbi .5 maybe 8 weeks old, FASS100 about 12 weeks old, performance and sound (no tick) were 2 weeks top of the tops, better than new, then starts ticking again. that's why i once filled up a tank of premium diesel. i´m read a lot about uls diesel. now it was quiet again for 2 weeks. 2 weeks later starts ticking again. now i added a little 2-stroke oil. again 2 weeks quiet. and now, exactly, ticking again. the ticking is over the whole speed range. at idle in P a little quieter, idle in D much louder. with 3/4 throttle to full it is not noticeable anymore. the exhaust is louder then. where i don't hear anything anymore is in pushing mode in cc lock. where according to smarty no injection takes place. does it make a difference if stock or over stock injectors for the Leak test?? i have measured with warm engine, FCA unplugged, 1000rpm, CP-3 in a separate bucket, PRV in separate bucket, injector return measured separately. Waited 10 sec. to stabilize. --300ml in 15sec. then i stopped. i think i don't need to wait 30 sec. i always hear a fuel tick. warm it gets better, but it is always there. no starting problems cold or hot. short loop after starting which is not showing in the dash but to hear and feel. maybe 8 sec. light grey smoke at idle and a smell of "coal" maybe. i can´t say diesel, but a strong smell. cold anyway. warm still quite easy. strong beating/bucking in cruise with od off and cc lock. Act.RP varies between 6500-7500 at idle speed. on the highway between 17000-21000. FCA and RP sensor are Bosch new. absolutely no blowby cold or warm, idle or speed up. i have taken an oil sample this weekend. still waiting for the results. oil level is always the same though. I still have to do a compression test, but the mileage is only 76K. i re-tightened the x-tubes with 57nm - 42ft/lbs two weeks ago.
then this weekend the leak test as above with these strange results. then checked the x-tubes again and tightened them with 42 lb/ft. maybe there were 1-2mm left to turn. did the leak test again with the same result.
I would like to rule out all forms of personal negligence before contacting Martin. He is really a great guy with a great product. i have to find the fault myself first and repair it if possible. so here are my many questions and descriptions.
I have checkt the balancing on the smarty. there are always 2 injectors from that range. what does smarty mean by bal#5. is this cylinder number 5 (i don't think so) or is that in the firing-order number 5 what cylinder 2 would mean?! however, if i remove the cable from cylinder 2, bal#5 will go all the way up. then i have exchanged the injector of cylinder 2 with the one of cylinder 3. now the imbalance is at bal#3 means cylinder 3. now the injector of cylinder 2 is in there and i have imbalance at bal#3. that would make sense, wouldn't it?
i´m also make 3 vids from RP and ticking catched with a stetoskop and put it in utube. it is allowed to link this here?
thank you already for reading the long post :nerd:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
pic1:
Injectors still in the "original" position

Pic2:
Injector from cylinder 2 and 3 swaped
 

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Discussion Starter #6
does anyone know the bosch-number (if they exist) of the rail plugs. where i can shut off single cylinder connections. sure on ebay, but it takes too long to ship. here at our hydraulic supplier the cones don't have the right angle. at 23000psi it should fit without damage the rail cone. i have an old injection pipe, i can weld it in case of need.
 

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I would weld line, make cap good welder,not hard .
Never heard of individual Bosch tool for cap off of lines.
Cummins tool part number: 3164325
Spx/miller 9011
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Miller+9011&i=automotive&ref=nb_sb_noss


Why did you replace OEM injectors ??
My old girl, always making noises should get mechanics stethoscope, help narrow down.


Verify proper tools/test procedure see http://cdn.genosgarage.com/downloads/TechPDF/TDR72_HPCR_Injectors.pdf or
Fuel Injectors for 2003 and Newer HPCR Engines - Frequently Asked Questions - Geno's Garage

Not sure on Smarty balance rates, my truck is 04, Dodge's retarded step child, not smart enough to do those test. :wink2:
 

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Whole injection system on the HPCR is "noisy". Worst is fuel line #1, no NVH snubber. Are the other 55 snubbers torqued down tight and locked with Permatex Blue?
You may have some wear in valve train, bent pushrods, worn cupped lifter face or sticky in bore, rough cam lobes, sticking valve stems.

Test the individual injector leakage amounts and post up after you make your blockoff tool.

Don't have time to research how Smarty displays cylinder balance.
Call Martin or his partner with the numbers and Smarty info, they have a close business working relationship with MADS Smarty. Will know how Smarty sequences their cylinder balance.

BBIs are the smoothest running injectors on the market for the 5.9/6.7. Should see much less variation on rail pressure at idle. <300 psi when all is correct with the 0.5s.

Don't rule out ring/piston/cylinder/valve damage until compression test is ran as last resort. I know, the truck owning mechanic is always perfect.
Eyeball blowby test on these is worthless

Any roughness problems with the connector tube threads in the head. These rust and throw off the torque down. Old tubes rusted?

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hello rghavana, I have changed my injectors because they have started to cause problems. Rpm stuck at 3000rpm for 3-4 sec. Delayed and stuttering drop in rpm. Loud nailing and dropouts. I did not want to risk piston damage. I read a lot on the net, in forums and manufacturer websites and then decided on the right injectors. I have already welded the blockoff cap today. But I won't be coming to the individual injector test until the weekend. Like I said, Daily driver. I made a video with the ticking and the link is at the top of the article. I used an electronic stetoscope and held the headphone of it directly to my Samsung. Your linked instructions I have to read tonight if I missed something.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Has anyone listened to the video with the tick? What do you think? Cylinder 2 sounds very different from 3,4,5. Cylinder 1 is also slightly louder. So I switched this injector from cyl.2 with an injector from cyl.3. The loud noise went along with cylinder 3. Go to cyl.2
 

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Discussion Starter #14
i got the result from the oilcheck - good to go
no water or diesel in that oil. wear sound normal.
enough zinc for lubrication
i marked green
 

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Discussion Starter #15
hi steelhead1,
it's not just a noise. it's a relatively loud metallic ticking. the RP fluctuates so much that you can feel it in the acceleration. absolutely want to avoid further damage to pistons or cylinder surfaces. i have checked all clamps of the injection lines several times. line #4 is the update cummins with the new wide clamp. i have had all pushrods outside. all perfectly straight. no broken valve spring. valve stem seals all good (no leakage towards valvecover). all rocker arms are good. all oil bore in rocker arm and shaft are free. minor polishing of the lower tread on the trunions. there was a single broken plastic retainer on the rocker tip. i removed it before it fell off. valve clearance checked. all within tolerance. nevertheless all set to .010 and .026. all valve heads smooth and flat, no camber. valve bridges all smooth and even, no cracks on the edges.
x-tubes: the old removed ones were still good. no rust, straight, threads good. threads in the cylinder head are perfect. no rust or similar. when installing the new x-tubes i used engine mounting grease. all kept super clean with blind plugs or rubber plugs. injector installation procedure followed exactly. torque wrenches are checked yearly in our workshop. we are ISO9001 certified. so it is required.
i am now looking for an adapter for the compression test. my tester only has adapters for glow plugs or threaded injectors. then i can do it on the weekend together with the blockoff test. the oil check that was made says good to go. normal wear in oil. no diesel, water or carbon in oil. then i can almost exclude broken piston rings. but the compression test will show that.
then i have to see who can give me an injector contribution test. i personally have no possibility for that.
last possibility then: call martin
I want to rule out everything else first.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
something else occurred to me:
Would it be possible for the FASS100 to pump air forward despite all of its filters and separation systems?
I noticed during the last injector leak test (transparent hose on the return pipe at the original filter place) that there are also small air bubbles with the return diesel. there was also a slight fog. like finely atomized fuel. At first I thought this hose sucked air in itself. then attached a clamp. air bubbles anyway.
but could be normal due to cavitation through this high pressure lekage that I am looking for all the time right?
 

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Has anyone listened to the video with the tick? What do you think? Cylinder 2 sounds very different from 3,4,5. Cylinder 1 is also slightly louder. So I switched this injector from cyl.2 with an injector from cyl.3. The loud noise went along with cylinder 3. Go to cyl.2
something else occurred to me:
Would it be possible for the FASS100 to pump air forward despite all of its filters and separation systems?
I noticed during the last injector leak test (transparent hose on the return pipe at the original filter place) that there are also small air bubbles with the return diesel. there was also a slight fog. like finely atomized fuel. At first I thought this hose sucked air in itself. then attached a clamp. air bubbles anyway.
but could be normal due to cavitation through this high pressure lekage that I am looking for all the time right?


Listened to audio, 2 does sound different are you sure all copper washers are installed on injectors?
Ohm test wires/injector solenoids?? see if any big differences.

From other videos, Some thing strange with rail pressure should try get data and plot see if a pattern shows when disconnecting specific injectors.
As far as air in fuel any leaks could cause issue should double check no supply side leaks
should make proper supply pressure 11 psi to CP3 if not check for restriction or pump issue.

Check for air in the fuel
Refer to Procedure 006-003. Operate the engine
at idle and check for air bubbles. If the engine will
not start, check while cranking the engine.
Note: Do not overheat the starter
Is air present in the fuel supply?
YES
Repair:
Locate and correct the cause of air ingestion
in the fuel supply system. Sources of air
ingestion include loose fuel filters, loose fuel
line fittings, loose or cracked fuel tank standpipes,
or severe restrictions in the fuel supply
lines and filters that cause cavitation at high
fuel flow rates.

Procedure 006-003

Air in Fuel (006-003)
General Information
A replacement of fuel supply lines, fuel filters, fuel
injection pump, high-pressure fuel lines, and injectors will
let air enter the fuel system. Air in the system can make
the engine hard to start, run rough, misfire, produce low
power, or can cause excessive smoke and a fuel knock.
A few bubbles exiting the line during the test is expected.
A foamy appearance is indication of a leak that allows air
to enter, a severe inlet restriction that causes cavitation,
or a system that is not yet primed. If fuel inlet restriction
(refer to Procedure 006-020) is not excessive, the source
of air entry should be isolated to one of the following:
• Suction fuel lines
• ECM cooling plate assembly (if applicable)
• OEM fuel lines
• Suction-side fuel filter assemblies
• Stand-pipe(s) in the fuel tank(s)
WARNING
Be sure that the fuel inlet and return valves are
returned to the open position before cranking engine.
Engine damage can result if valves are in the wrong
position when engine is cranked or started.
Environmental damage can also occur. Refer to
Procedure 005-999 (Fuel System Overview) in
Familiarization section for further information.
Test
3.9L and 5.9L Without Fuel Filter Diagnostic Test
Ports
NOTE: On quick-disconnect fittings with a white tang;
push in the white tang to release the fuel line.
Install the fuel pressure gauge adapter service tool, Part
Number 3164044, between the ECM cooling plate and the
gear pump.
Operate the engine at idle and check for air bubbles in the
clear line.
If air continues to bubble through the clear hose for
several minutes, then an air leak is present.
Collect fuel in a bucket or similar device.
Look for air bubbles in the fuel as it fills the bucket or
similar container.
If air continues to bubble through the clear hose for
several minutes, then an air leak is present.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Okay. Thanks a lot. Perfect info. I'm looking to make a short transparent hose with matching connectors that fits directly onto the cp3. Then I can test the very last piece before the cp3 if there is air coming from the Fass100 system.
All Coper washers installed. On injector 2,3 are new this Weekend Where I had swapped them. That sound moved with them.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Just a quick info. There are absolutely no leaks to the outside. None of the fuel lines. FASS100 sounds perfectly normal. Quiet and no noise from Sucking air.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Just a short Update. All injectors are out for double checking. Filmed all pistons. Cyl 2. Vid 1 is fresh injector out. Is this a incorect spraypattern. The darker dry Position at the edge of the ball?
Hotspot?
Vid 2 is the same cyl2 blown out with shopair. I have this dark Spots at 2+3. The others are wirhout dark Spots.
https://youtu.be/8DNcIGumPlE
https://youtu.be/8DNcIGumPlE
 
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