Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum banner

1 - 20 of 1911 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
2001 Dodge 3500, 112,000 mi, 5.9 Cummins, 4X 4, Long Bed with NV5600 6 speed transmission. Just went out again for the 3rd time. Failures were at 82,000, 97,000 and now at 112,000. Had regular dealer service. Use it to haul a 40' gooseneck and a Case 1155E loader tipping the scales at 25,000 lbs.

Parts are really hard to find. Last time I had to buy a core for $500 just to get parts for the rebuild by a heavy truck tranny shop. Problem seems to be in the 5-6 gear section with seized bearings.

Spoke with a rebuild shop in Ohio and they have started drilling lube holes in the case and bearing shell and claim they have not had any failures since they started. Anyone have experience with this procedure???

I am changing the NV5600 out for a Fuller FSO-6406A. It has a 660 HP rating with 6th OD at .78. These ratings are close to that of the NV5600.

This is not new or innovative. The Freightliner FL 70 has used the FS6406 6 speed since '93 and Ford has used Fuller's with Cummins on the F650 and F750 since 2003.

Since Fuller never has had a married transfer case, the transfer case would have to be divorced. Need to find the correct clutch set up that is used with the medium duty truck. Would need a #2 SAE flywheel housing and 1-3/4" clutch.

Parts are readily availabe for Fuller and never have to worry about synthetic oils--should be good for 500k miles or more.

Local trans shop has a NV5600 for $1000. Needs output shaft and bearing. Synchros and all gears look good. Mine will be available as soon as I complete the change-over. I suppose someone will want pictures and part numbers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nortlander

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
596 Posts
I wonder if a double disc clutch can be had for the fuller behind a 5.9. Also, if you can get the adapter from the f-word, They are probably using an NV271 transfer case, and if so, that is one heck of a transfer case and some members have swapped them in place of their NV241's
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
NV5600 is Toast

Took the NV5600 tranny out of the truck yesterday. Knew clutch was going to be an issue when I splt the bell from the flywheel cover--chunks fell out. Only had about 10K mi on it. No disc material on flywheel side and very worn on cover side. Hadn't noticed slipping or noises.

I have a pile of junk for a tranny. The NV5600 has a broken output shaft and no bearings in any of the housings. 5-6 had been a little rough before she quit, just truck'n along a 65 and no load.

I took the first step to replacing the NV5600 with a Fuller. I picked up a SAE#2 flywheel cover (3921296) for $75. There are numerous 5.9 FW covers that will work. Need to get the 14" Cummins flywheel (Ace cat# AF392153) and 14" clutch. Starter is on drivers side. Will need to get a 28MT starter too.

There are numerous 5-6 & 7 speed Fuller and Spicer trannys that will work for this set-up. If I can get the info on the 2008 Ford Expedition, it is equipped with the Fuller FSO6406A (6 speed O/D) and connected to a transfer case. If I can find that adapter, the 4 X 4 will be just like the original. I hope I can remember to take photos and keep track of the part numbers. If you look at the gear ranges and OD, the Fuller FSO6406A is almost identical to the ranges found in the NV5600.

[URL=http://s1231.photobucket.com/user/sancobg/media/Fuller%20Transmission%20and%20Transfer%20case/NV560020Broken20Shaft.jpg.html]

[IMG]http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee520/sancobg/Fuller%20Transmission%20and%20Transfer%20case/NV560020Broken20Shaft.jpg



GOODBYE NV5600--hello Roadranger reliability
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,147 Posts
just curious why youve had so many problems with these? what were you running for a gear oil? were you not using the clutch while under load?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
435 Posts
Id like to see some pics if you dont mind.
Too bad your so far away or Id buy that old tranny off you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
The truck has received regular dealer service. The oil it had in it was the Mopar transmission fluid P/N 4874464. Other than burnt black, the oil level was almost full when it failed.

If I had it to do over again--or knowing what I know now, I would make a dip stick for the PTO cover and extend it into the hood as well as tap the cover for a digital temp sensor. I would monitor both constantly. Heat kills the tranny.

Here are a few of the other issues I've had with the truck----while it was under warranty

transmission/clutch
2 transfer pumps
2 injection pumps
3 fuel sending units in the tank
steering/brake booster
Gooseneck trailer electrical hook-up

In spite of all this, I will keep the Cummins---been the F & C diesel model route and they were worse. Still have my parked and abandoned 1997 Chev 3500 that needs a transplant. Gave the 1996 F350 Ford away for $500 just so I wouldn't have to look at it. Neither made the 150K mark.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
586 Posts
I'd like to see pics also! Sick and tired of so called experts trying to build me a decent 5600!:$: Have my spare in garage now, lost 3rd and 4th in it a while back. Have to service current one soon, going to try the Torco RTF ( racing trans fluid) in it this time and see if it frees up the shifting somewhat. WTH is Rio Chama???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
213 Posts
My reverse gear Just ceized up on my nv4500... Lookin to swap in a different tranny. I was thinking about the 5600, but now that you mention a fuller... Do you have an idea of how much it is going to cost?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
274 Posts
Check the new Sterling trucks, some have the new 6.7l with Fuller FS-6406A, some use the FULLER FS-5406A
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
NV5600 to Fuller

Ok, Rio Chama is a rural community in northern New Mexico half way between Espanola and Abiquiu on Hwy 84/285 (100 miles north of Albuq or 45 miles NW of Santa Fe). Have a 6 acre site with 300 feet of river frontage and have all my goodies on it.

As for total cost for a change out of the NV5600, it will depend on a number of things such as your location, parts sources and freight cost. Here in NM we only have a few "big" truck wreckers so parts are not easy to find and freight is a real problem.

The ideal change over package would be to find a medium duty truck with a 5.9 Cummins such as a Freightliner FL60 or FL70, Ford F550, 650, 750, F800, Sterling and others where you can purchase the entire package from starter, flywheel, flywheel cover, Fuller bell, clutch and tranny. A wrecker would much rather sell a package than pieces. I believe that all could be had for less than $3,000. I'm thinking that with the sources I have, I'll be in at $1,500. Don't overlook the 4BT's in bread trucks, UPS and others---the set-up is the same if they have the 5 or 6 speed Fuller.

Need to remember, if you have the 4 X 4, you will have to divorce the NP271 and have some additional support and driveline costs too. We need to find a source for that Fuller 4 X 4 adapter.

Completed mockup of 4 X 4 Adapter
 
  • Like
Reactions: w500Cummings

·
Registered
Joined
·
84 Posts
I have done some research on this transmission. Because I am looking to do a swap myself. At www.roadranger.com they have a list for there trannies and the FS-6406A is only rated at 600 ftlbs of torque. I was told that the med duty trucks have less HP and TORQUE than the 5.9 P/U trucks. Most of there movement is in the gearing turning a physicaly larger ring gear that may be close to a P/U's gear. But like a larger tire rolls easer than a small one. So do you think the rear end needs to be upgreaded as well?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
my budy just did some work on a large ford water truck with a 5.9 cummins. i know the horse power was less but the torque was higher than i think a regular 24valve. i wouldnt be supprised if it was a fuller. the tranny was huge compared to a 5600 you would think a bigger casing would mean stronger right. and since it has to move that much weight u think it would withstand a lot more than 600 ft/lbs
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Torque Comparisson

:hyper:Most all mid-size trucks with a 5.9 Cummins use the Fuller transmission with a 14" clutch and a 1-3/4" or 2" input shaft. For 2008, 10 trans options are offered. Unlike passenger vehicles, mid-sized trucks are spec'd for the intended purpose and geared accordingly.

Ford for example offers the 5.9 with HP ratings of 185, 215, 230, 245, 260 hp and and torque of 420, 520, 660 lb-ft. Cat motors go all the way to 800 lb-ft torque. The trans ratings correspond to the torque, FS4205A, FS-5205A, FS-5406A, FS-5406 and FS-6406A. The O/D version is FSO-6406A and FSO-8406A. Spicer offers a 7 speed in the ES56-7B and ES066-7B.

I spoke with Scott at New Mexico Gear and Clutch. His only caution was to watch the direct output drive ratio to the rear gearing. For example, if you use a straight 6 speed with 4.10 gears you will be at 2200-2400 RPM and max at 55-58 MPH. The the 6 speed OD (.73 X 4.10=2.993) gives us a effective high speed ratio of 2.993.

For the NV5600
1st - 5.63
2nd - 3.38
3rd - 2.04
4th - 1.39
5th - 1.00
6th - 0.73 w/4.10's, effective ratio is 2.993



The Getrag trans is
1st - 4.23
2nd - 2.53
3rd - 1.67
4th - 1.23
5th - 1.00
6th - 0.79 w/4.10's, effective ratio is 3.239

The Fuller FSO-6406A is
1st - 7.06
2nd - 4.13
3rd - 2.52
4th - 1.59
5th - 1.00
6th - 0.78 w/4.10's, effective ratio is 3.198

With a Fuller set-up, low end pulling (1 & 2) is much better and all 3 transmissions are comparable in 3rd to 6th gears. The lower the effective gear ratio the more top end speed. The NV has a very slight edge.

Scott also stated that he is changing a lot of Dodge rears when bigger tires are used. Just can't get the truck moving with 3.55 or 3.91 gears and 40" inch tires.

All looks promising---
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
112 Posts
New to the forum...
Hello,
I've just rebuilt my NV5600 (295K) and since have had 3 OD gear failures, last one lasted 2 days and my Ram is now in the shade until I can come up with a OEM parts source Seems parts are now coming from India and are NOT the quality the OEM parts. I welded over the (poorly) welded area of the last one and then heat treated, all a waste of time and money... it lasted 2 days.
Fuller FSO-8406A seems to be the same size as the 6406A and rated higher.
I wonder where to look for one that would fit beind a ISB since I make my living with my Ram and cannot afford to be dealing with inferior parts breaking every other day!
Thanks, pc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
NV5600 Replacement Trans

Hi all,

I have left my junk NV5600 laying out in the snow since I pulled it just to keep reminding me that I DO NOT want to re-install it.

Here are some additional facts on the Fuller transmission. If you have a 4.10 diff, you will need an FSO (O/D) unit, else your max speed will be 55 mph. FSO's are not readily available since they are late model, however the non-OD FS-6406A and FS-8406A have been used since the 1990's. The good news is that the internal shafts and gears are the same as the FSO with the exception of the OD gears. You can convert an FS into an FSO. Here is the info for the conversion.

Need to change the following http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@roadranger/documents/content/rr_fs-6406a.pdf
Main Shaft
item #8 4301477 5TH GEAR-MAINSHAFT

Counter Shaft
item #6 3315743 DRIVE GEAR-CNTRSHFT
item #7 4301478 5TH GEAR-CNTRSHFT

to

FSO-6406 parts list http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@roadranger/documents/content/rr_fso-6406a.pdf
Main Shaft
item #8 4304543 OD GEAR-MAINSHAFT

Countershaft
item #6 4304541 DRIVE GEAR-CNTRSHFT
item #7 4304542 OD GEAR-CNTRSHFT

With some luck you should be able to find all of the following:
SAE#2 5.9 Cummins flywheel Cover
Flywheel 14" 5.9 Cummins
Clutch 14" (shaft could be 1-1/2" to 2" depending on trans)
SAE #2 Fuller Bellhousing
FSO-6406A or FSO-8406A 6 speed Fuller (or convert an FS to FSO)

Clutch actuation needs to be worked out--the FS-6406A has available a "push" clutch input shaft similar to that on the NV5600. This is rare as most are "pull" type. Clutch lever rework required.

For those with the married T-case, a divorce is in order unless someone can help locate the adapter being used on the 2008 Excusion where the FSO/married T-case is used. Called Fuller tech support and they say this is a "non-Fuller" item.

Had to set the conversion aside for a while as I've had to install a new track on my Case 1155E and now replacing the DT466 on my loader. Weather isn't much help either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I am considering a swap to a FSO-6406A. I have a 2001 Ram 3500 NV5600 2wd 3.54 Dana 80. Reverse gear is geared to high when backing our 5th wheel GVW 27000 combination. I slip the clutch too much. I have had trouble trying to find a transmission. They want some kind of application number. I thought of finding a medium duty truck with this engine and transmission to get the application number. You seem to have a handle on this type of swap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)

·
Registered
Joined
·
112 Posts
Re-Man FSO-8406A

After calling Fuller, $6,900 will get you a Re-Man FSO-8406A, less freight, unless you can put a "DEAL" together through someone.
Seems the build your own "path" would save a great deal of effort in a several ways.
1st. COST
2nd. Looking to find the used FSO-8406A would not be easy since they are scarse (as in new).
3rd. Finding and converting 6 spd to the 6 spd OD because of availabity simply
makes things easier & the scrap yards HAVE them.
ALSO.. the difference beween the 6406/8406 is the (better) heat treat.

Would the Spicer ESO 667B be a better option?
 
  • Like
Reactions: dd453ford
1 - 20 of 1911 Posts
Top