Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum banner
1 - 20 of 72 Posts

· Premium Member
Joined
·
3,132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
There is a lot of information/misinformation available with a few keystrokes;
I'm writing this to relay my experiences, which I think is relevant to a lot of us who are in the same postion. I am no subject matter expert, and am not bashing anyone's product or choices; this is merely to disseminate information. I live on the Gulf, so I won't be spending much time at higher elevations; if you live in thinner air this may/may not pertain to you.

I am looking for a reliable towing turbo; EFI tuned with stock fuel (no fuel upgrades planned). I don't care about dyno numbers, as it needs to work real world. This needs to be flexible enough to tow from sea level to the mountains. It needs to do this and stay around or under 1300*. I may be over 20k GVW if I get another rig (current fiver is about 9,000 on the scale dry). I commute 30 miles/day and hit the box stores on the weekends, with the occasional road trip thrown in. In other words, I use my truck like most of us would.

Everyone has a preference or favorite, and I've looked at nearly all of them (Cheetah, 464, 467.7, 472 over stocker, etc). So far I've only run 300 or equivalent frame turbos (VGT, 366 and CW currently). The VGT would have been the best suited for my needs, had it not DOA. Replacement costs are at least $2200 (Cheetah or OEM from HTT). Issue I had was not being able to get actuator calibrated; am hearing that those above are pretty much plug and play. Issue I have is having to put all that garbage back into the truck just to run it again, and not knowing if/when it will crap out again.

The 366 was just plain wrong for a stock fueled truck.

Surprisingly, the CW is turning out to be a good choice, as it spools like right now comparred to the 366 (hits 15 at 1400 RPM after shifting in 4), and always seems to be at 2 or 3 PSI at the ready; the 366 would flatline until you booted it. Only issue, and one I knew about, are EG temps being a T3. They are a bit higher than I like, but cooler than the 366. I can live with it for now.

If you're also scratching your head over this, here's some of the key points:

- unless you are a decent fabricator, plan on about $3000 for the swap; prices can be higher or lower, but it's a good average to budget. For that price, so far I've seen a couple of 2nd gen swaps and a compound system.
- the Cheetah is the least expensive, if you already have a T3 mani, and would make a great HP for a compound. Ryan's favorite T3 on a 6.7.
- 464/2nd gen T4 recommended from Anarchy.
- 467.7, .90, seems to be favored by those with stock fuel, though some of the tuners do not recommend it for towing. Those who run it say different.
- compounding the 351. Mixed bag for compounding a 6.7 (more for the 5.9 crowd) but some have done it with good results. Considering I'm running the CW instead of the VE I can't find much about compounding the 6.7 (lots of info on the 5.9) For compounding the CW, CPP offers the least expensive option, but uses boots rather than pipe in their kits, which is heartburn for a lot of folks (there seem to be more for than against, though). Big Twin and Crazy Carl also offer both piping and kits, which use pipe rather than boots, but prices vary between. Carl offers the pipe and charger separately ($1500 for the pipe kit) but will not commit if it will work on a 6.7 or not. Big Twin does not offer a direct fit kit, and recommends the 64 over 88 Garrett, at an $8500 premium-by far the most expensive system available that I could find.

So far, this is just scratching the surface; my search continues. Compounding this are (as I'm sure you already know) varying opinions; some say something will not work, usually followed by several positive responses from current users who say otherwise.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,338 Posts
I run a 64.5/72/14 on stock fuel with great results. Also on a g56. Stays cool and can spool over 25psi before 2k(6th gear). My choice would be s464. Btw my super b special tows great @ 10k+ elevation! Good luck.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
242 Posts
I have very little to add here as I am with a 467.7, 10 mm stroker and 60% exergy's. But I would tow anything and not be afraid. Keep in mind I have the g56
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
3,132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Key differences in opinions also seem to dwell around which trans you have; the G seems to have more forgiveness, due to being able to control shift points. If my knees weren't so FUBAR, I would seriously consider doing a swap; was actually smiling when I went to look at the 15's and saw a dually crew with one.

Wonder how many have swapped our for a fixed, only to swap a VE back in? The Cheetah and factory new from HTT are about the same price, and are cheaper than doing a full 2nd gen swap.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
3,132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The more I search, the more the Cheetah VGT keeps comming up. For the price (less than $2g right now with all the holiday deals and discounts) you get a higher flowing charger with an EB. Considering what I plan on doing (towing at higher elevations) I don't want to go with a large single, and compounds (even with using the CW as the HP) is still north of what the Cheetah is; then I have to shell out for an EB, 625's and ringing the head (which is recomended/required by most of the shops I've spoken with when pusing 60 psi, which every system I've researched will surpass easily). Since I'm also considering a Load Leash, you need to run a VE to use it.

The longer I'm with a fixed charger, the more I mourn the loss of the VE.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
You don't need to fire ring the head anymore. MLS has a multi layer head gasket the will hold that kind of boost with good head studs.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
3,132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The Load Leash can't use the 625's. due to the torque they require, which will damage the Leash.

According to the people who build the kits, anything over 60 psi rings are recommended. If, say, I were to compound the VE, and decided to use the Leash, I would have to ring, since I can only use the 2000's (according to my research); one of the reasons compounds are not being seriously considered. If I, somehow, come into cash, my dream build would be a 700 horse tow rig using the Cheetah as the HP, whatever the builder recommends for atmospheric, all steel coated piping, bottom end and head, then find a CC Mega conversion to stick it in.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
307 Posts
What about an HE451?
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
3,132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
From what I'm hearing, the 451 is bigger than the 351, has a different foot and requires some fabrication skills to install (maybe from those who try to install onto 2nd gen mani, which there are some), probably due to the size it may not fit into 3rd gen location. Not sure. http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/4th-gen-performance-parts-discussion/872562-fleece-holset-vgt-cheetah-3.html check out post #29 for more info.

Depending on which 451, it may not be any better (most are 60mm) and the shafts are the same as the 351, which can be a fail point. My searching has turned up all of zero 64mm units (all have been 60) and are questionable. Considering what I plan on doing, $2200 is better than wasting hundreds, along with time, having it fail and doing it again, anyway. Put another way; you could spend $600 for a set of Primewells, or $1200 for a set of Michelins, more money but you will be replacing the Primes at least 3 times before a set of Michs, plus the questionable reliability of China tires. It's all about where you spend your money, not just saving it.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
347 Posts
I agree the 464 is probably the best bet.

I wouldn't mind trying the 451 off the 15L ISX either.
Cummins ISX Holset HE451VG HE451 Turbo turbocharger 64mm | eBay
I think that is the good one. I've read that Steedspeed will make a manifold for you with the correct bolt pattern.

Either way I bet anarchy or Dave Matthews could tune it to run perfect.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,102 Posts
just put a Cheetah VGT on a friends 09 auto this afternoon ........that thing aint what its chalked up to be..... we could peg 1600* with H&S mini box tow tune just as fast as the stocker, it surges bad around 1400-1600 rpm, and the exhaust brake sucks butt hole........ tried to play with it a little with EFI and got the surge to go away but she still gets hot in a hurry towing my 40' flatbed trailer empty..... she is going on the dyno for some loving in the AM, but im to to optimistic about being able to make any good HP with it...... basically we have a very mild tow tune loaded now, takes about a extra 30-45 seconds for it to it 1600*. Buddy is pissed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....Me..... not surprised. you can dress a prostitute up and take her to a dance.....but at the end of the night she is still a prostitute!!!
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
3,132 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Any VGT may be pointless, anyway; all of them require the actuator to be calibrated with the truck's computer, and there is no way for me to get it done locally.

Fixed charger is back on the list, though not compounds. 425's and EB will be going in, so more research will be needed to make sure I can run one with a 400 frame charger without heavy modification.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,102 Posts
Any VGT may be pointless, anyway; all of them require the actuator to be calibrated with the truck's computer, and there is no way for me to get it done locally.

Fixed charger is back on the list, though not compounds. 425's and EB will be going in, so more research will be needed to make sure I can run one with a 400 frame charger without heavy modification.
The cheetah doesn't need to be calibrated..... It was plug and play.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,102 Posts
Got the cheetah to stay some what cool, would consistantly make 410-425 at 2200 rpm at 100% load for 10 min before the coolant and trans temp went into the red..... Could do the same load/time at 325hp and everything would stay under the red zone temp wise..... About a 15% improvement over stock..... It did make a difference once we took the fuel away up top, found choke zone was about 250-300 rpm over the stock turbo so there is a bit more flow. Could run consistantly 35-36 psi boost and had 55-65 psi drive, found once you get over 36psi map the drive increases about 3 fold...... All in all not impressed at all with $2000 bolt on.......


Also dropped barometric pressure in the load cell to simulate a 8000' pull and it actually performed pretty good, surprisingly compressor outlet temp came up about 60* or so.... Stocker came up almost 100*.
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top