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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
is there any way to change the timing on the inj. pump on these trucks. or....since i got a code 216 do i just need a new one. whats the best way to go? should i get new injectors also?? and is the 216 to blame for all the problems im having like white smoke. not that much power...thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
yes the p 0216 is why you have white smoke and no power and you cannot re-time them you need a new one bud......
hmm. should i get new injectors too? truck hasnt been touched ever 214k....
 

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Mopar1973Man.Com
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P0216 Error code...

This means the advancement piston inside the VP44 could not obtain proper timing for said load. Normally this is cause by lack of lubricant in the fuel and/or low fuel pressure.



Here is the testing for the lift pump...
Lift Pump Diagnostics
 

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you shouldnt need new injectors....the injectors in our 24 valves are pretty bullet proof.... unless you wanna upgrade to a bigger injector for more power and a little better fuel economy depending on your driving.... if you have money to spend this is what I would do.... I would by a new injection pump from industrial injection.... ( the hot rod pump ) I would also buy a fass fuel pump to replace your failed lift pump... then I would buy some bigger injectors if you have money left over
 

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Just get a regular SO pump and leave the stock injectors alone. And I do recommend a lift pump upgrade. A fass or an hpfp would be just fine.
 

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As a newer member to the diesel world and this forum I don't want to give out any wrong information... but... doing reading on vp44s and lift pumps I came across articles saying that VP44 failures weren't due to low fuel pressure at all, but rather manufacturing defects.

Now I think to myself, why relocate the pumps to the tank if VP44 failures weren't due to an insufficient lift pump? If the lift pumps weren't the problem, why bother with them? Well, I think it was partly a bad manufactured VP, and partially lift pumps that failed because of their location.

So I believe (and please, take anything I say with a grain of salt and make up you own mind, I'm no expert by any means) that the intank pumps are completely sufficient to satisfy the newer manufactured VP44's with enough fuel ON A STOCK TRUCK. My VP and lift pump were replaced in Jan 2005. I put a BD 5psi fuel pressure light on my truck when I got it and it flickered even at light throttle. Since then I've eliminated a few banjos and did 3/8 feed line. I haven't seen it flicker once (even with the power puck and EZ) And I believe that as long as the VP is seeing SOME positive pressure that it's always getting enough fuel to use as well as to lubricate itself. Even if it's getting 1psi at WOT, it's still not taking in more that your lift pump can deliver. It's using all it can handle and there's still 1psi of "extra" pressure that isn't being used.

Again, research for yourself. And also, I drive pretty conservatively. But I'm banking on my theory and I bet my old intank pump and VP last for years with 9psi at idle.
 

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Interesting. Low fuel pressure might not be the main cause of failure but it's definitely a factor in it. I think that you'd need more than the injection pump can handle in order to allow adequate cooling.
 

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Interesting. Low fuel pressure might not be the main cause of failure but it's definitely a factor in it. I think that you'd need more than the injection pump can handle in order to allow adequate cooling.
But think about it, whether your get 1psi, 5psi or 10psi at WOT, it's still fuel pressure that the VP is not allowing to enter because it's processing all it can handle. So building up more pressure against the inlet of the VP does you no good. If it was using the pressure leftover from fuel delivery to cool the pump, and the cooling portion of the VP needed more fuel, wouldn't you have 0psi at WOT? If there's always SOME pressure there, then there's no way the VP is needing more than is available to it. JMO, respectfully...
 

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I understand. And you ain't bothering me. I'm just sharing my view point. I understand that having left over pressure means the pump isn't using everything it has but IIRC the bypass opens up at ~14psi. If you've only got 8psi going to the pump then how's the bypass gonna open and cool things off? Maybe diesel-dan can come in here and give us a better idea.
 

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:popcorn: . ..
 

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I understand. And you ain't bothering me. I'm just sharing my view point. I understand that having left over pressure means the pump isn't using everything it has but IIRC the bypass opens up at ~14psi. If you've only got 8psi going to the pump then how's the bypass gonna open and cool things off? Maybe diesel-dan can come in here and give us a better idea.
Yeah, we're just thinkin out loud here...

Yes, the bypass opens up at 14psi. If I'm correct, that means after 14psi of EXTRA pressure the VP opens the bypass valve to let the overflow fuel go back into the return line. I wouldn't think it took 14psi to let the fuel into the areas of the VP that are needed to cool it. Why would they make the retrofitted intank pump to only put out 10psi then? And why is my VP still alive after 3 years of 9psi? (probably 7psi before I removed banjos and did a bigger line feed)

My main question would be:

If I was Dodge... and I had hundreds of trucks coming back under warranty that I (Dodge) had to pay for, why would I, after all my research into the cause of the problem, and knowing what the problem was, go through the trouble of redesigning the fuel delivery system and spend all the labor costs of putting a new pump in the tank only for it to be just as incapable as the first? And therefor resulting in more warranty claims?

If they just wanted to run your warranty out until you couldn't file a claim anymore wouldn't they just call it a defective lift pump and put the same exact one on, saving the huge labor costs of an intank pump retrofit, and call it a day?
 

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Ok. Then why did dodge mandate that anything under 8psi under load was deemed hazardous to the VP?

I bet I have an idea on why they went to the intank pump. 1) The people wanted it. 2) It was originally designed for the CR motors which don't require the pressure that the VP's do to help the pump. CR's just need positive pressure on a stock truck to run. 3) Instead of having 2 different types of pump setups, they eliminated the one on the block and just started doing retrofits instead. 4) Why in the world did they ever get rid of the mechanical lift pump from the 12v days?
 

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Ok. Then why did dodge mandate that anything under 8psi under load was deemed hazardous to the VP?
Really, they did? How they can say that and then put a 10psi intank pump on just doesn't make sense. And again, why is my VP still good?

I bet I have an idea on why they went to the intank pump. 1) The people wanted it. 2) It was originally designed for the CR motors which don't require the pressure that the VP's do to help the pump. CR's just need positive pressure on a stock truck to run. 3) Instead of having 2 different types of pump setups, they eliminated the one on the block and just started doing retrofits instead. 4) Why in the world did they ever get rid of the mechanical lift pump from the 12v days?
I agree with 1 and 3. :) And 4, why put electrical on if mechanicals work fine?
 

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Call up dodge and ask them what they have deemed low fuel pressure. Last time I was in that's what they told me. And your VP might be living for a number of reasons. Maybe your theory is correct, maybe you've just got a strong pump. Who knows. All we have is speculation and theories. But it's fun to discuss them.
 

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Mopar1973Man.Com
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Here is the pressure requirements for the 2nd Gen (1998.5 to 2002).



Now here is the CR 3rd Gen Pressure Requirement...



These are both pic straight from the Dodge Factory Service Manual...

Now as for pressure not only is it used for cooling and lubricantion of the VP44 but it also controls the timing advancement with low fuel pressure timing will NOT advance.

I also look at it this way... The fuel is the lubricant for the VP44. If you come up short on lurbricant pressure for the pump it will FAIL! Being under WOT operation and high fuel demand if your below specs you not get extra fuel for lubricantion.

As for testing on the volume test with a stock fuel system with only 8-9 PSI at idle. It fails the volume test every time...

Lift Pump Diagnostics

Test #1

Test #2

Test #3


You take you choice of fuel systems... Me I would rather have too much fuel than not enough... Even performance is effected by lack of fuel pressure...:w:
 

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Here is the pressure requirements for the 2nd Gen (1998.5 to 2002).



Now here is the CR 3rd Gen Pressure Requirement...



These are both pic straight from the Dodge Factory Service Manual...
Yes, but which service manual? The original one, or the one they put out after they changed to the whole new system of the intank pump?

Now as for pressure not only is it used for cooling and lubricantion of the VP44 but it also controls the timing advancement with low fuel pressure timing will NOT advance.
I don't think this is true. This is straight from the Bosch installation instructions for the VP44. It states that:

VP44 Timing Principles

Timing in the VP44 is controlled by an internal timing piston coupled to a cam ring inside the pump. The timing piston is moved by fuel pressure. The amount of fuel pressure in the timing piston assembly housing is controlled by an internal transfer pump and a pulsating timing solenoid valve.

As pump speed increases, the fuel pressure to the timing piston assembly also increases. Based on the inputs from the fuel pump control module (FPCM), the timing solenoid valve pulses to vary the pressure to move the timing piston, which results in the cam ring moving to the desired position to achieve the commanded timing.

The more pressure created by the internal transfer pump and timing solenoid valve, the more the timing will advance; therefore, timing range capability is increased at higher rpms.


I also look at it this way... The fuel is the lubricant for the VP44. If you come up short on lurbricant pressure for the pump it will FAIL! Being under WOT operation and high fuel demand if your below specs you not get extra fuel for lubricantion.
This is what I don't understand. If you're still getting 1psi at WOT, that means that the pump can't take in any more pressure. More pressure would not do it any good because if was able to take more pressure, that 1psi would be sucked up by the pump and used. But since it's still there, then the VP doesn't need it. It has as much fuel feeding the pistons and cooling the unit that it can take. That's why there's 1psi left over.

Now if you getting a vacuum at WOT, then I can see a starvation problem.
 

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Good point on the volume mopar. I had forgotten that dodge has since switched to volume tests instead of PSI tests.

So now we can debate if the volume of fuel your getting at 1psi is enough to maintain proper cooling and lubrication of the VP as opposed to the volume of fuel your getting at 14psi.

Either way it's personal preference. I'd like to know that I'm force feeding my VP and it is bypassing all of that fuel and only using a little bit than potentially starving it. Biggest problem with these debates is that none of us actually know for sure what's going on inside the pump and what it needs because bosch won't let us know. For all we know we could be starving the pump at 15psi or over-pressurizing it at 5psi.
 
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