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hydrogen research...

1413 Views 19 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  Supershafts, 
E
Hey...

This is my second post, following my introduction...

If you believe its a scam, please move on...

Plain and simple. I can prove that gravity does exist... I can't prove that an engine is incapable of utilizing a gallon of electroysed water to move itself a certain distance. Its already been PROVEN that any engine can run off a hydrogen/ovygen mixture.

Its my theory that, efficiency of energy tranfer is what is key.

Electralysis takes a crap ton of current to pierce through water. its liquid... in effect, its "stonger" than a solid... hehehe wrap your brain around that.. :)

My honda doesn't have enough horsepower to power a pulley driven generator to make the volts/amps that are needed. Which is prolly why most of these hho things are scams... their alternators are not putting out enough energy to make the amount of gas needed. Efficiency is Key... We will have to sacrifice performance to make this work... no doubt in my mind... but I believe nonetheless... it can work...

I have a 4 plate aluminum cell that has HHO production with a 12v system @ about 30 amps with no electrolyte... just plain old tap water. It goes ballistic nearly doubles when I add rocksalt, the crap that rusts your car here in wonderful new york. This is without any modification to the current or circuit, no tricks to the trade... 12v and 30 amps, positive and negative held close together under water... not rocket science. I imagine if I used better/purer metal, with more attention to detail, I'd get even more.

The VIC(voltage intensifier circuit), and PWM (pulse width modifier circuit) will be tools that I believe are key to making this successfull. I'm currently building them with my handy dandy radio shack education lab I got for 70 bucks :)

I'm a musician, I record my band onto my computer.

I have software that alllows me to modify the WAV files for desired pitch, volume, effects... you guys know how good an album can sound...

Now think about editing the current that runs from the alt, to the battery, through the cell back to the battery. Frequency manipulation.

I started with the idea of a second alternator... but a gasoline engine requires a spark to run. A diesel does not. What would happen if you put a coil on a diesel, but made a plasma arc inside the cell, and a tiny mist of water was sprayed into that arc. What would happen? Instant HHO?

I believe this is possible. I'm looking for other people that want to discuss this, and share research.

cheers
-greg
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E
oh yea... I been down the ricer road... but how can I make a small diesel fast, loud, and ballsy?

got a few issues at hand to achieve water as a fuel.

1. need to figure out a way to generate the most electricity out of a alternator/generater. And I'm talking plasma... Remember Tesla... he's done some crazy stuff... but it can't be to big, and needs to beable to be driven by a 8 cylinder diesal that is less than 9ltrs.

2. power baby... time to trick the truck... I need some engine that can do some damage... the more powerful the engine, the bigger generator I can spin.

3. look at each horsepower individually. a 200hp motor... if we stick on a generator that eats up 100 of those hp... that still leaves us with 100hp to push the car. I don't mind putting a v8 in my honda... I'll just have to get crafty putting it in...

4. suspension... offroaders... let's think lower... gotta carry a load... more weight closer to the ground... how we gonna do that? complete suspension redesign? start at the subframe begining and work your way forward... standard honda civic... more springs? coils inside one another?

5. batteries... need good batteries... and prolly 3 or 4 good ones. gotta make the fuel before we start the engine AND then start the engine...

makefuel/ignitinggas/makefuel/ignitinggas/makefuel/ignitinggas/makefuel/ignitinggas/makefuel/ignitinggas...

thats gonna take some cold cranking amps. we can design a reciprocating system that will not run forever, but and engine that will run till all the water is gone...

we have to focus on each individual "machine" that its gonna take to make this complicated system work... 100% efficiency is impossible... but dammit we can come close...

think of it like this... will blow your mind... the 6.7 cummins is the "new 4 banger fuel saver" it gets installed on all retrofitted 88-91 honda civics. a power increase of more than a few horsepower.

equivilant to the power increase from the 1.5 to the 1.6si head and ecu or b16 swap... just a lil more work...

I want to drop in a i dunno 10ltr V10 500hp diesel motor in my jeep. I mean an all motor animal... but when I drive it, it has the power of its little brother with a 4 banger...

You ask... Greg why does that sound appealing...

and I smile... cuzz it runs on water.

let's take this to the next generation:)
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Begle1
You haven't really said what you're trying to do here...

If you're trying to run your car off of hydrogen to save gas... Do you understand that it takes more energy to turn water into hydrogen than you get from burning the hydrogen? No matter the process you're using to turn the water into the Brown's gas, you're not going to get energy from burning the gas; that's a thermodynamics/ chemistry problem that's not going to be circumvented. So you'd spend a lot of money to make a setup that would cost you more money.

Now, if you're going to be making hydrogen in an attempt to improve the combustion dynamics of you're existing car... That may or may not work, but at least you're not rewriting the rules of the universe to explain it's functionality. If you're really interested, start with a cell as big as you can. When you run out of amperage, get a bigger alternator. Nothing keeping you from mounting a 400 amp alternator on your Civic, it's just not gonna accelerate very fast when you're drawing 400 amps...

If you're trying to stockpile lots of hydrogen for short bursts of performance... That's actually an idea that doesn't scream "I'm a 14 year old with no internally coherent thought process!". You could spend the 50 minutes driving to the strip using a 40 amp Brown's gas generator and an air compressor to stockpile 30 gallons of HHO at 250 PSI, then use it to run down the track. There are problems with using hydrogen as a fuel that need to be circumvented; mainly that it has really low BTU/ mol and that it burns slow. But I'm sure that somebody out there's putting out really good times with lots of hydrogen fumigation. Provided they don't get caught by the safety inspection crew and issued a lifetime ban by the NHRA, that is...

1000 PSI hydrogen or Brown's gas should cool as good as nitrous and give power on it's own... Fun...
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Begle1 said:
You haven't really said what you're trying to do here...

If you're trying to run your car off of hydrogen to save gas... Do you understand that it takes more energy to turn water into hydrogen than you get from burning the hydrogen?
Click to expand...

how much air and fuel is needed to fill a combustion chamber for the intake phase of the cycle?

how much electricity will it take to make that much hydrogen using electralysis?

how big of a generater can a standard 6.7 cummins diesal spin?

whats the maximum amount of electricity that could be created by a generator being spun with a 6.7ltr diesel?

how much HHo per minute is this maximum amount capable of producing?

I have questions that make me hesitant to succomb to an impossibility.
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Begle1
It's the second law of thermodynamics. If you could run an engine, and then use that engine to make more energy than it is running on, you have created a perpetual motion device and the universe a splodes in a giant orgy of runaway kinetic energy.
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Begle1 said:
It's the second law of thermodynamics. If you could run an engine, and then use that engine to make more energy than it is running on, you have created a perpetual motion device and the universe a splodes in a giant orgy of runaway kinetic energy.
Click to expand...

ok... lessen the objective... how bout an engine that will run on a 95%HHO 5%gas mixture?

is that impossible?

not to rid our obsession with oil, just use a whole lot less... extend its value...
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Dad
I agree w/ Begle1, until we find out how to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics, the on board generation of hydrogen by way of electrolysis doesn't compute.

Thermodynamics laws dictate that there is no net increase or decrease of energy in the universe. Energy is just converted. Some energy becomes unusable during the conversion, but is not lost in the larger scheme of things.

The energy from an internal combustion engine goes into heat out the exhaust pipe and some is stored as kinetic energy when the vehicle is in motion. Ultimately, the kinetic energy of the moving mass is converted to heat through the brakes when you stop. Hybrid cars capture some of the kinetic energy by generating electricity with the wheel motors during deceleration. By far the biggest waste of energy is heat.
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Dad said:
I agree w/ Begle1, until we find out how to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics, the on board generation of hydrogen by way of electrolysis doesn't compute.

Thermodynamics laws dictate that there is no net increase or decrease of energy in the universe. Energy is just converted. Some energy becomes unusable during the conversion, but is not lost in the larger scheme of things.

The energy from an internal combustion engine goes into heat out the exhaust pipe and some is stored as kinetic energy when the vehicle is in motion. Ultimately, the kinetic energy of the moving mass is converted to heat through the brakes when you stop. Hybrid cars capture some of the kinetic energy by generating electricity with the wheel motors during deceleration. By far the biggest waste of energy is heat.
Click to expand...
hmm... theres this resonance frequency thing to...

and this 2 cells opposite each other using pure stainless creating a magnetic field...

I know what the law states, but there's to many what if's...

I'm gonna have to experiment more...
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Begle1
You can run an hydrogen off of hydrogen, that's not the problem.

The problem is that you will always be burning at least 20 miles worth of Diesel fuel to make 19 miles worth of hydrogen. And that's at the best; more practically you're going to be burning 20 miles worth of Diesel for 5 or 10 miles worth of hydrogen.

Harmonics, Planck-time quantum phenomenon, quasi-mystical rare earth magnet effects, anything you have is not going to be a process that makes energy.

If you're trying to run entirely off of hydrogen, it's futile. If you're trying to get a tad more efficiency by changing combustion dynamics through hydrogen fumigation, that's possible. So is using hydrogen in the name of performance. But you cannot run an engine and have it make energy in the process.
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ok. watch this vid real quick... this has me wondering.. its not real cold fusion, but you get the idea... i imagine the possibilities when i visualize this reaction taking place inside a combustion chamber...

YouTube - Cold Fusion Plasma 9
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Begle1
Somebody is using a quantity of energy to break water into a gas which he then burns to yield a smaller quantity of energy. It's cool looking, but it isn't going to do as much as the Diesel would've that he used to make that gas. If Brown's gas was really useful for something it might be worth it to spend energy to make it. But the usefulness of Brown's gas is the hard thing to find.
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Begle1 said:
Somebody is using a quantity of energy to break water into a gas which he then burns to yield a smaller quantity of energy. It's cool looking, but it isn't going to do as much as the Diesel would've that he used to make that gas. If Brown's gas was really useful for something it might be worth it to spend energy to make it. But the usefulness of Brown's gas is the hard thing to find.
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Alright I'll accept that but please allow me to retort.

In theory, and standard alternator can be modified to output 120vdc to create the plasma arc that you saw in the video.
HHO replacing gasoline seems unlikely, but what about alternative fuels WITH HHO supplement? Vegetable oil, or that fryer grease as the replacement for fuel diesel.

what is more efficient? a honda 1.5 ltr getting 22mpg moving 2200lbs (guesstimation) or a 6.7ltr diesel getting 5-10mpg moving triple that?

what happens when you limit the pounds a larger motor has to move around. won't you have an excess of energy?

its not like a tractor gets 50mpg when he's bobtailin down the highway...
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D
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
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... why am i only logged in for like 30 seconds... how annoying...
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E
has this gotten to heated?

its not like this is gonna be figured out here in the next week or so...

argue points... let's see who comes out on top:)
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Begle1
What's the argument? What was the original question, even?

If you want to use HHO to augment the combustion of gasoline, Diesel, vegetable oil, jet fuel, syngas, wood, methane, methanol, propane or peat moss, then it is possible that you would see some benefits. HHO may or may not desirably approve combustion dynamics in a given engine burning a given fuel in a given application. People have argued for years about whether or not HHO fumigation into an engine is a way of increasing efficiency. I think that it has merit on older Diesel engines but will never make a difference on a common rail.

The only way HHO fumigation will make a beneficial improvement is if it allowed an engine to burn more of the injected fuel than it would otherwise. Newer Diesel's burn such a high percentage of injected fuel I don't see it possibly being anything but a waste. I can see it making a difference in older Diesel's like mine, that haze unburned fuel nearly constantly.

But, I've never even seen anything that's convinced me that use of a HHO to reduce unburned hydrocarbons is effective. It would take a half hour on a dyno to conclusively test a system; just put a load on it with and without fumigation and see if unburned hydrocarbon levels decrease.
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Begle1 said:
What's the argument? What was the original question, even?
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It works. and this is how.

the vehicle has a closed system as it is. The alternator is the power source, the battery is for storage.

electrolysis takes voltage, and quite a bit of it actually.

A regular alternator unregulated will output up to 47 some amps, way more power than needed.

here's the closed circuit were gonna patch into whats already there... like adding a stereo and amp.

alternator will send 12v to a pulse width modulator, which will make the current pulse, kinda like a spark plug. then it goes into the transformer which steps up the volts to like 15 or 20 or something... then it goes into the fuel cell. the fuel cell acts as a capacitor, and depending on your cell design, it does have a saturation point... putting in the right equipment that can handle more power is what is key, as well as the "perfect" pulse.

watch this demonstration. it will show you how this is possible. its not rocket science.

YouTube - Hydrogen Tap (My Take ON Myers) 284
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Begle1
Of course making Brown's gas out of water is possible.

What benefit do you expect to see once the hydrogen reaches the combustion chamber? That's what I've been discussing.
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Begle1 said:
Of course making Brown's gas out of water is possible.

What benefit do you expect to see once the hydrogen reaches the combustion chamber? That's what I've been discussing.
Click to expand...
based upon that circuit concept, a capacitor being charged through a step-up transformer, replacing gasoline with browns gas is theoretically possible.

I'm saying we've not found perpetual energy, we've just found a way to tap the hydrogen fuel that is stored in water.
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S
You could get more benefits out of redesigning the combustion chamber and continue using diesel or gas, and gain mpg and power...
Try it you would be surprised of the benefits of shaped chambers, chambers with enhanced burn grooves also make hp and mpg, works on gas motors, i never got to indepth with a diesel
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