[mikepierce93]

I am trying to remove the VP44 gear bolt, but the engine keeps turning when I turn the nut. I am sure this is a common question but I can find a single thread which points this out.

2004 5.9 24V 6sp RWD.

 

[simplysmn]

Maybe hit it with a Impact ? or put a socket on the crank bolt .

 

[cms829]

remove injector.....throw a rock in it.....lol.


But really I would assume you could have someone throw a breaker bar with appropriate socket on the bolts on the front damper to keep it front turning. or use a barring tool (looks like a huge torq socket) as you would when removing the trans TC bolts.

Thats a guess honestly but It where I would start. Be sure to check the torque of any bolts you use to help.

 

[rdefayette]

I am trying to remove the VP44 gear bolt, but the engine keeps turning when I turn the nut. I am sure this is a common question but I can find a single thread which points this out.

2004 5.9 24V 6sp RWD.

and you won't find a thread about 'cause the common rails have a cp3 pump.
get a 3/8" impact gun down in there. it'll zip the nut loose PDQ.
DON'T drop the nut or lock washer down in the timing cover.

 

[mikepierce93]

Thanks guys, Since I don't have a torque wrench, I used my breaker bar on the nut, it gave me enough umph to break it loose using the back pressure as resistance.
One thing that annoyed me is the oddities of my configuration. The APPS is under the battery, one site claimed the gear on the VP44 will come off and to "set the key to 12 o'clock position etc" But mine has no key and the gear never comes out of the housing. Plus it never said to remove the VP44 Flange nuts first before using the gear puller. Since the configuration actually "pushes" the Pump out of the gear, as much as it is "pulling" the gear off. I know it is a concept thing. ( I think the directions were for an 2nd gen, even though they claimed it was for 3rd)
I condition started with the engine turns but not starting, getting codes P0251, and 2 APPS codes (P2121, P2123 I think). There were no APPS symptoms other than the codes. (no dead pedal issues)
I changed the filter, and it was OK for a day or 2, then again no start.
replaced the FCM, started once in evening (it is starting to get cold here (~27F) in am)
Replaced the VP44, and will put on a new serp belt (needed a new one) tonight. I am hoping this fixes it.
I will put a new APPS on my to do list.

2004 RAM 2500 ext cab, 8' LB, Cummins 245HP, 6sp RWD, no mods, 23.5 mpg 50%highway/50%backroads.

 

[Chiricahua]

Thanks guys, Since I don't have a torque wrench, I used my breaker bar on the nut, it gave me enough umph to break it loose using the back pressure as resistance.
One thing that annoyed me is the oddities of my configuration. The APPS is under the battery, one site claimed the gear on the VP44 will come off and to "set the key to 12 o'clock position etc" But mine has no key and the gear never comes out of the housing. Plus it never said to remove the VP44 Flange nuts first before using the gear puller. Since the configuration actually "pushes" the Pump out of the gear, as much as it is "pulling" the gear off. I know it is a concept thing. ( I think the directions were for an 2nd gen, even though they claimed it was for 3rd)
I condition started with the engine turns but not starting, getting codes P0251, and 2 APPS codes (P2121, P2123 I think). There were no APPS symptoms other than the codes. (no dead pedal issues)
I changed the filter, and it was OK for a day or 2, then again no start.
replaced the FCM, started once in evening (it is starting to get cold here (~27F) in am)
Replaced the VP44, and will put on a new serp belt (needed a new one) tonight. I am hoping this fixes it.
I will put a new APPS on my to do list.

2004 RAM 2500 ext cab, 8' LB, Cummins 245HP, 6sp RWD, no mods, 23.5 mpg 50%highway/50%backroads.

You need to get the right service manual. If your truck is an 04 you do not have a VP44 you have a CP3.

 

[rdefayette]

You need to get the right service manual. If your truck is an 04 you do not have a VP44 you have a CP3.

I told him that a couple posts up but I guess he didn't read it.

 

[cerberusiam]

Replaced the VP44, and will put on a new serp belt (needed a new one) tonight. I am hoping this fixes it.
I will put a new APPS on my to do list.

I think you will find you have spent a lot of money you did not need to, and, you have a lot to learn about a CR engine.

Unless you are working on a 24V, in which case this is the wrong forum.

 

[mikepierce93]

I think you will find you have spent a lot of money you did not need to, and, you have a lot to learn about a CR engine.

Unless you are working on a 24V, in which case this is the wrong forum.

Well best I can tell a 2004, 24v 245HP is a 3rd gen, I bought the CP3 for my version, it installed fine. But I think the problem is the acronym seemed to be interchangeable, which it turns out I guess wasn't.
To finalize after giving the truck a full charge (used the battery too much as I was trying to figure out what was wrong) it started up after about 5-10 sec of turning, drove it for about 50 miles, all systems go. Starts now after a couple rotations like before, I do get a belt whine (slight) so I think I need to hit the serpentine (new) with some belt lube. Next step will be to replace the APPS. I think the trouble code will still call that part out once I clear the codes at Advance Auto. Thanks for the help, even though it was the wrong discussion.

 

[cerberusiam]

Sorry, those are not acronyms they are designators and their meanings are radically different. The whole process changes for diagnostices depending on which one you are really talking about. The solutions are also completely different and if you would have answered and clarifyed what exactly you were working on you would have found that out.

The CP-3 are usually the very last part to replace as they are pretty reliable, whereas a no start with a VP-44 it is likely the IP. You replaced the 2nd most expensive part that rarely fails. While you now have a starting truck you likely did not solve the problem, only masked it.

In the end, if it runs and your happy nothing else matters.

 

[mikepierce93]

Sorry, those are not acronyms they are designators and their meanings are radically different. The whole process changes for diagnostices depending on which one you are really talking about. The solutions are also completely different and if you would have answered and clarifyed what exactly you were working on you would have found that out.

The CP-3 are usually the very last part to replace as they are pretty reliable, whereas a no start with a VP-44 it is likely the IP. You replaced the 2nd most expensive part that rarely fails. While you now have a starting truck you likely did not solve the problem, only masked it.

In the end, if it runs and your happy nothing else matters.

OK, for my info in the future, I'll give you my diagnostic steps, and if you would fill me in where I may have stepped ahead and might have to go back in and replace later.
- The (Lift pump?) fuel tank pump was replaced on recall about 70k miles ago, with the recommended external pump (from what I was told, I owned the truck but a friend borrowed it, it failed on his trip)
When the truck failed to start most recently:
- Checked codes, found P0215, P2121, P2123
- I replaced the fuel filter.
--Ran fine for about 150 miles (~3 days back and forth from work)
--Check to see if the Fuel filter canister was "full" of fuel will also help to determine if the tank pump is still OK.
- Checked codes, found P0215, P2121, P2123 still, couldn't clear them.
--Checked the relays for continuity to make sure there is power to everything, all OK.
--P0215 is the FCM or the CP-3 from what I could tell, but saw several threads that said to "test" the FCM by shaking, if it makes no noise it is clogged and needs to be replaced, it is also about 1/8 the price of the CP-3.
--P2121 & P2123 is the APPS from what I could tell, but that is also would include the "dead" pedal situation in the more sever cases. Which I have none. (so this is a second level replacement)
--Replaced the FCM, Started once after I replaced, in the evening, wouldn't start the next day.
-Replaced the the CP-3, runs fine.
I realize I could get the injectors tested, but I think there would have been a different code for that. But I don't know.
My next step is the APPS, but if you could fill me in on what could be the part that is/could be masked. I would like to check that too.
Thanks in advance.

 

[cerberusiam]

P0215 is a code for the LP circuit. The ECU is seeing an out of range condition on either resistance or amperage draw likely resulting in reduced or no operation. Could also be cause by wiring failure, connector failure, bad gorunds, or bad battery connections.

You cannot tell if the LP is operating correctly by looking at the filter. The CP-3 will attempt to draw fuel and as long as the LP is stopped in an open position it will. If the LP stalls\stops closing off the intake port the truck will not start as it cannot draw fuel. To vlaidate LP operation requires a gauge on the CP-3 inlet to verify there is positive pressure all the time, at a minimum 3 psi and better 5-8 psi all the time.

FCM is an acronym for Front Control Module, basically has nothing to do with the CP-3 or fuel system. What you are trying to describe is the FCA, Fuel Control Actuator. Urban legend that shaking it will tell if it is good or bad. They can be good\bad if it rattles\doesn't rattle. The typical problem with the FCA will show as inability to maintain high rpms or dying at an idle and\or loping.

No start conditions have some definite starting points. You have to verify you have constant fuel pressure to the CP-3, gauge in the fuel inlet. Next step is to verify you are getting adequate rail pressure on cranking, the ECU will not even fire the injectors until it sees somewhere around 3000 psi.

Lack of rail pressure can be a lot of things, you have to go thru the steps to find the issue or it will resurface, only a matter of time. The rail PRV is a good candidate for low rail pressures, as is low batteries, bad battery conenctions, bad power signal to the ECU, bad chassis grounds, failing rail pressure sensor, bad harness, bad FCA, bad COV, bad CP-3, and ECU failing.

Certain trucks have an issue with the AC compressor activation wire in as much as it will rub on the chassis and partially short throwing all manner of garbage into the electrical system causing hard\no starts, bad idle, APPS codes, etc. Bad connections on the battery or a failing battery will cause the exact same symptoms and there is no good way to tell them apart.

A shorted fan will shut the truck completely down, as will a loose or shorted wire on the OBD port. If you are not getting a CEL and bad driving manners from the APPS codes I would start with check harness and battery and ground and power connections and having the batteries load tested.

 

[mikepierce93]

P0215 is a code for the LP circuit. The ECU is seeing an out of range condition on either resistance or amperage draw likely resulting in reduced or no operation. Could also be cause by wiring failure, connector failure, bad gorunds, or bad battery connections.
I miss typed that one, it was actually the P251

You cannot tell if the LP is operating correctly by looking at the filter. The CP-3 will attempt to draw fuel and as long as the LP is stopped in an open position it will. If the LP stalls\stops closing off the intake port the truck will not start as it cannot draw fuel. To vlaidate LP operation requires a gauge on the CP-3 inlet to verify there is positive pressure all the time, at a minimum 3 psi and better 5-8 psi all the time.
Good to know, I would like to install the test T and quick connect to test the LP pressure.

FCM is an acronym for Front Control Module, basically has nothing to do with the CP-3 or fuel system. What you are trying to describe is the FCA, Fuel Control Actuator. Urban legend that shaking it will tell if it is good or bad. They can be good\bad if it rattles\doesn't rattle. The typical problem with the FCA will show as inability to maintain high rpms or dying at an idle and\or loping.
Again another miss type, but your assumption was correct.

No start conditions have some definite starting points. You have to verify you have constant fuel pressure to the CP-3, gauge in the fuel inlet. Next step is to verify you are getting adequate rail pressure on cranking, the ECU will not even fire the injectors until it sees somewhere around 3000 psi.

Lack of rail pressure can be a lot of things, you have to go thru the steps to find the issue or it will resurface, only a matter of time. The rail PRV is a good candidate for low rail pressures, as is low batteries, bad battery conenctions, bad power signal to the ECU, bad chassis grounds, failing rail pressure sensor, bad harness, bad FCA, bad COV, bad CP-3, and ECU failing.

Certain trucks have an issue with the AC compressor activation wire in as much as it will rub on the chassis and partially short throwing all manner of garbage into the electrical system causing hard\no starts, bad idle, APPS codes, etc. Bad connections on the battery or a failing battery will cause the exact same symptoms and there is no good way to tell them apart.

A shorted fan will shut the truck completely down, as will a loose or shorted wire on the OBD port. If you are not getting a CEL and bad driving manners from the APPS codes I would start with check harness and battery and ground and power connections and having the batteries load tested.

OK, so as you predicted, I couldn't start it again, I haven't cleared the codes yet, will have to do that tomorrow. But codes I am getting now are P2121, P2122, P0251, and New codes P0480, P2509 and P0088. As I said last week, I had it running, put about 150 miles on it. I had a high pitched (belt type) whine when I pushed the pedal even just a little. Also, I was slowly getting a harder start each time until it failed to start yesterday morning. Since I had new codes, and no fuel pressure gauge :-(. I came to the conclusion that the P0480 was my "new" problem, since I have read that it can cause the P2509 code. Which points me to the Fan Clutch . Which I replaced.
But, as i'm pretty sure you will tell me that might not solve the problem :-(
Since I am still having hard start issues. (started with a quick squirt of starter fluid in the intake.)
So I will stop and get a FP test kit and install that tom. evening at the Filter outline. (unless you can tell me not to do that ;-) ) I'll keep you updated. Again thanks for any input.

 

[cerberusiam]

IMO, the P2509 may be the source of all your problems. That code is a power lost to the ECU failure. Could the fan cause that, maybe if it shorted completely out but if you replaced the fan it should not be an issue. The P0480 and P0483 end being nuisance codes on some replacement fans. I have them, the fan still works, and have never had a 2509 unless I disconnected the batteries.

If that 2509 keeps coming back you have power issues somewhere. Every single code you have can be traced to a power issue. Bad battery, bad battery connections, corroded power conedction to the ECU, bad ground(s), etc. Pay special attention to the battery cables under the covering at the clamp. They can and will corrode under that covering and you cannot see it without digging into the cable itslef. Will totally mess up the electrical system.
Any\all of these probelms can and will turn into hard\no start problems and intermit depending on temps, humidity, and how you hold your mouth when starting.

The easiest way to tap for LP pressure is a tapped banjo bolt at the CP-3 inlet. Avialble a lot of places online, maybe locally. The line from the fuel filter housing to the CP-3 can also be tapped with a T in the rubber part if you so desire. It is a relatively short run so anywhere in that line will give you an idea what you have for LP pressure.

 

[mikepierce93]

OK, I'll be heading by the local Advance, and i'll have them test the batteries, I know when I connected the IP I disconnected the batteries, both ground lines have the corrosion crust on them, which I cleaned up but they did seem loose. I tightened them, but that will be taken care of today.
One random question, in NC they switched out the Cold temp fuel last week, because of my issues, Im still running the summer fuel. and it has gotten in the 20s several times the last 2 weeks. On top of that my neighbor (2004 F350) had the same symptoms a few years ago, and had bad glow plugs. I have contemplated testing those too. So in summary:
today on way home
- Clear codes
- Test batteries, connections,
- Fill fuel tank (1/2 now) + additive
ASAP
- buy, install/test LP pressure
- check glow plugs (if this makes sense)

 

[cerberusiam]

The ISB doesn't have glow plugs, has grid heaters in the base of the air horn, and direct injection so it doesn't have the problems of the IDI engines like the older PS's are. On a Cummins the grid heater is an emisisons device until the ambient temps drop under 0 F. They might smoke a little in the teens and 20's without grid heaters but given everything else is good they will fire right up.

Keep in mind the ECU has step tranformers in the injector drivers. It requires a full 22-24 volts to drive the injectors correctly for injection events. One battery bad or a bad connection and it will not have enough power to fire the solenoids as it should for good operation. Good batteries and good connections to ground and the power feed to the ECU are critical.

It is possible you have some bad fuel also. Anything in the south, especially this time of year, has the potential for too much water and ULSD is nasty for absorbing and holding it. ULSD will also start clouding under 40 F and wax will start crystalizing out a 20 F unless it is blend with #1 ULSD or heavily treated. The switch over when temps drop can cause issues.

 

[Kill]

Your truck does not have glow plugs, you have an intake air grid heater. Even if the grid heater wasn't working it should still start fairly easily in 20 degree weather, you would just have extended cranking times.