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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hope someone has some insight... loosing my mind lol.

Let me start with my truck and how this all started I have an
03 3500 srw 246,000 miles

Things I've done over the last 8 years
  • Fass 150 Platinum (single filter)(6yrs ago)
  • Aftermarket wastegate (6yrs ago)
  • Smarty SP06 POD (7yrs ago)
  • Fully built trans trq converter billet input,output, valve body, flex plate, upgraded electrics(6yrs ago)
  • aftermarket intake (boost tube)(6yrs ago)
  • K&N intake (8yrs ago)
  • Solid 1 piece drive shaft with upgraded U joints :) no more center support bearing (2yrs ago)
  • 5" turbo back stainless straight pipe (5yrs ago)
  • Full gauges

my truck had a hard start issue for about 8 months. Went through all the cheap DIY fixes thinking it was a fuel delivery problem

  • replaced rail pressure sensor
  • put in high pressure relief valve block off
  • pulled sending unit to verify I didn't have a blockage. (In the process knocked something loose because I no longer have a working fuel gauge... always empty lol)
  • replaced all fuel lines from tank to fass to cp3 (old and dry)
  • changed pre pump strainer and fass filter

Didnt solve it so I finally bit the bullet and took it to a local diesel shop that does some of thier own heavy equipment repairs the head mechanic is supposed to be a cummins guy so I took a chance figuring it was the injectors or the CP3 due to the mileage.

They looked at it and said my injectors were extremely worn why it was hard starting. Bought industrial injection +100s, Bosch connector tubes, and a high pressure rail with new sensor and relief valve and had them install them.
They did the work following the torque procedure.

Called me saying it was ready to be picked up. Truck started right up 1/4 crank dont think it was ever that good. Left and noticed that it had no power.. ehh maybe it's the computer recalibrating..?.? Made it about 4min and noticed my rail pressure only got up to 6k.. then continued to drop till zero and the truck would starve for fuel and die. Would start right back up but wouldn't build pressure and just limp till it died again. Called the shop they said bring it right back.

They trouble shot it for a couple days... replaced a map sensor, Did a battery maintenance, used the smarty to bring it back to a stock tune (had been at lvl8 or 9 for 5yrs lol) called me back saying it was the cp3 failing. I was trying to save money at this point considering i just broke the bank on injectors, tubes, rail, and labor. The head mechanic said it was an easy swap and I could do it.

Limped the truck back to my driveway added an inline pressure gauge between the fass and the cp3 just to be sure (constant 18psi) and did a bucket test on the fass (150gph) to start eliminating possible faults in the fuel system. Everything checked out so found a 30k mile cp3 from an 03 and replaced it in 0 degree Northern IL weather. Excited that I might finally have my truck back after 2 months jumped in started right up (1/4 crank again YES!) Drove ok still a dog maybe this is stock. wow.. pressure built to 20k couple minutes only 6k... then 3k then 0.... ****. Died. Called the shop flipping out... wtf man not the cp3. Get it back here I wont leave you hanging..

Limped it back to their shop -5 degrees died about 10 times until the batteries crapped out then I had it towed.
They trouble shot it for a couple days chasing wires, asked for my old cp3 to check the FCA, ohmed at 2.7 just like the new FCA did. Retorqued injectors/tubes checked lines for leaks. Had another mechanic come out with a more specialized engine/computer analyzer. Said it was my ECM.. the truck would run fine with full voltage at the FCA but then the voltage drops and so does the rail pressure. Mentioned it would drop to 1.2 amps then .9 then it would die. Get it home and have the ECM sent out.

Sick of just throwing parts at it I called SIA and talked to their technician that repairs cummins computers. Went through that book of history that I just typed he said that the FCA in communication with the rail pressure tells the ECM what voltage it needs, it's on at 2.6-4.6 volts. It would be the first computer that he has seen that failed in that manner but he would look at it if I wanted to send it in.... so here I sit with a broken truck lol
 

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Did you ever try completely removing the smarty?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It was brought back to the stock tune... that's smarty removed.
 

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Ok, so I'm guessing the smarty is only plugged in when changing tunes?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Correct. Plug it in to update a tune, tire size, etc then unplugged.
 

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When it does this, have you seen the command RP vs the actual RP?
 
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you could try this... get the truck to start to ensure fuel in filter & @CP3, shut it down and bypass the fass, remove power to it and fire it back up. it should run fine but not have 100% power that it would have with the fass in there. if it stalls again then the fass is prob fine.

last summer i had something similar which turned out to be a walbro puml with a gazillion miles on it that started shorting out internally. it would fire up, then die, then restart after popping the hood to poke around... until it died for good. then i had zero clicki g under the hood. while debugging it i removed power to it and the click returned. swapped in a backup pump and zero issues since then.

check for the click under the hood afted it dies. no click = cpe not working from incorrect power to fca... not really sure how my pump killed power to the fca like that but have had zero issues since that pump swap, approx 15 k miles now since the fix, not 1 issue
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Grunt - just actual rail pressure off of gauge not sure how to check command pressure.

Steve - interesting so bypass the fass pump and filter straight to cp3 from tank? The fass has over 100k on it but it passed the bucket test at 150gph and pushes 18psi consistency even during the pressure loss after the cp3 (witnessed it idling in the driveway tonight high pressure gauge at 0 and truck about to die but still at 18psi before the cp3) but in the back of my head I've been questioning it could be something between the fass and the fca. Not sure about the clicking it used to have one.. I'll check tomorrow.. what's a cpe?
 

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Grunt - just actual rail pressure off of gauge not sure how to check command pressure.

Steve - interesting so bypass the fass pump and filter straight to cp3 from tank? The fass has over 100k on it but it passed the bucket test at 150gph and pushes 18psi consistency even during the pressure loss after the cp3 (witnessed it idling in the driveway tonight high pressure gauge at 0 and truck about to die but still at 18psi before the cp3) but in the back of my head I've been questioning it could be something between the fass and the fca. Not sure about the clicking it used to have one.. I'll check tomorrow.. what's a cpe?
Yeah, the CP3 will pull out of the tank w/o a lift pump and it will run. Back in 2012 I had a walbro go bad early on into the install, swapped it out then that one failed to run. I swapped it out thinking the pumps were junk and I'd have to go another way but after the new pump install it did not start forcing me to do more debugging. In my case I had another relay to the pump that was causing it to not have power. Power to the pump goes thru 2 relays (one oem & 1 added by the kit) on my setup for some dumb reason. In my case (the last issue) the pump was not completely dead and was supplying the 18 psi to the cp3 yet killing the power to the FCA.

Simple quick check... fire it up, get it to die, pop you head under the hood with the key STILL on and listen for the FCA. If you hear the clicking then it has power and it would be assumed that the commanded vs actual should be met at idle.
 
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Any codes?
any smoke ?
What is demanded vs actual rail pressure?
new or reman injectors?
Unfortunately would not be first time II injectors had issues .
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ok worked on it this morning.
  • Ran truck till loss of pressure and died no FCA click under hood.
  • Bypassed Fass 150 ran straight from tank to CP3, unplugged electrical connection at the FASS. Started truck same problem idled till loss of pressure then died, no FCA click after stall.
  • checked wires behind ac compressor (common fail area on 03's) all looms look to be decent no burn or cracked areas.
  • Codes present after testing today
P0251 CP3 pump regulator control
P2509 powerdown data lost error
  • Remanufactured injectors
  • No abnormal smoke

Is ECM failure a possibility?
 

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Yep first should find fix cause of P2509, ECM powerdown data loss as it controls fueling.
possible causes for P2509

POOR CONNECTIONS AT THE BATTERIES
LOW BATTERY VOLTAGE
OPEN FUSED B+ TO ECM
OPEN GROUND CIRCUIT
BATTERY + SHORTED TO OTHER CIRCUITS
RETURN CIRCUIT SHORTED
BATTERY + SHORTED TO GROUND
INTERMITTENT CONDITION

1 Visually inspect the wiring at the battery for damaged wires, or corrosion.
Are the connections tight and free of corrosion?
All
Yes ! Go To 2
No ! Repair the poor connections at the batteries.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).

2 Measure the voltage between the positive and negative posts of the batteries.
Is the battery voltages both above 12 volts?
All
Yes ! Go To 3
No ! Recharge or replace the battery (s).
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).

3 Turn the ignition off.
Disconnect the ECM harness connectors.
Turn the ignition on.
Measure the resistance between the positive battery post and the ECM supply
circuits.
Is the resistance less than 10 Ohms?
All
Yes ! Go To 4
No ! Repair the open fused B+ circuit to ECM.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).

4 Measure the resistance between the negative battery post and the ECM ground wire.
Is the resistance less than 10 Ohms?
All
Yes ! Go To 5
No ! Repair the open ground circuit.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).

5 Measure the resistance between the ECM supply circuits and all other circuits in the
ECM harness connector, except other supply circuits.
Is the resistance greater than 100k Ohms?
All
Yes ! Go To 6
No ! Repair the battery circuit short to other circuits in engine harness.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).

6 Measure the resistance between the ECM return circuits and all other circuits in the
ECM harness connector, except other return circuits.
Is the resistance greater than 100k Ohms?
All
Yes ! Go To 7
No ! Repair or replace the engine harness.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).

7 Measure the resistance between the ECM B+ supply circuit and ground.
Is the resistance greater than 100k Ohms?
All
Yes ! Refer to the INTERMITTENT CONDITION Symptom (Diagnostic
Procedure).
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).
No ! Repair Battery + shorted to ground.
Perform POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL).
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Going to do a wire/gremlin chase next... Batteries were completely dead (from truck dieing 15times and restarting getting it there) when I picked it up last diesel shop repair and it was -5 out. Had to let a jumper box at 40A charge on 1 battery and jumper cables from a running jeep on the other for 45min then switch the jumper box to 125A when starting to get it to fire. Keep in mind the fuel issue was already happening before I did this (questioning/worried about damaging the ECM from jumping)

Once I limped it home (fuel pressure issue dieing/starting) I trickle charged the batteries for 2 days, both are holding right around 13 volts right now and drop to 12.6 when cranking. Batteries are 2yrs old and just had a terminal maintenance/cleaning when the shop was troubleshooting the truck.

Rghavana - Going to run through your electrical gremlin checklist truck is 18yrs old last 10 of it in IL winter weather and salt. So corrosion is an issue.

Anyone have a ground location diagram? I know these trucks have a ton
 

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FSMs section 8w-15 has ground distribution, which 03 do you have ?
if you have PCM on firewall use 03 manual, if just ECM on engine use 04 manual.
FSMs in newbies Guide here
Newbies guide to your new to you truck

If P0251 happened before the P2509 then need to check wiring and connections from FCA to ECM very carefully.
03 suffered from damage from corrosion and pins just loosen up/wear out.

P0251
When Monitored and Set Condition:

P0251-CP3 PUMP REGULATOR CONTROL
When Monitored: When the ignition is on.

Set Condition: The ECM detects a discrepancy between the PWM supplied to the
Electronic Fuel Control Actuator and the PWM returned from the Electronic Fuel Control Actuator.

POSSIBLE CAUSES
INTERMITTENT CONDITION
FUEL CONTROL ACTUATOR
(K31) RETURN CIRCUIT OPEN FROM FCA TO ECM
(K65) 5-VOLT SUPPLY CIRCUIT OPEN FROM FCA TO ECM
(K65) 5-VOLT SUPPLY CIRCUIT SHORTED TO VOLTAGE
ECM

TEST ACTION APPLICABILITY
1 With the DRBIIIt, record all freeze frame data and erase DTC’s.
With the DRBIIIt, read DTCs.
Is the DTC P0251 set?
All
Yes ! Go To 2
No ! Refer to the INTERMITTENT CONDITION Symptom (Diagnostic Procedure).

2 Disconnect the fuel control actuator (FCA).
Check connectors - Clean/repair as necessary.
Measure the resistance between the (K65) 5-volt supply circuit and (K31) return circuit of the FCA.
Is the resistance between 2.8 and 4.0 ohms?
All
Yes ! Go To 3
No ! Replace the fuel control actuator (FCA).

3 Disconnect the ECM harness connector.
Check connectors - Clean/repair as necessary.
Measure the resistance of the (K31) return circuit between the FCA and the ECM
connector.
Is the resistance less than 10 Ohms?
All
Yes ! Go To 4
No ! Repair or replace the engine wiring harness.

4 Measure the resistance of the (K65) 5-volt supply circuit between the FCA and the ECM connector.
Is the resistance less than 10 Ohms?
All
Yes ! Go To 5
No ! Repair or replace the engine wiring harness.

5 Turn the ignition off.
Measure the voltage between the (K65) 5-volt supply circuit in the electronic fuel
control actuator connector and battery negative.
Is the voltage greater than 1 volts?
All
Yes ! Repair the (K65) 5-volt supply (K65) circuit shorted to voltage.
No ! Go To 6

6 Reconnect the ECM harness connectors.
Ignition on, engine not running.
With the DRBIIIt, erase DTCs.
Monitor with the DRBIIIt while connecting a jumper wire between the (K65) 5-volt
supply and (K31) return circuits in the FCA connector.
Did the DTC return?
All
Yes ! Replace the ECM.
No ! Test Complete.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Always believed it was an early 03 model. Has a computer on the passenger side firewall as well as a big one on the driver side engine block.

I'm thinking with all the recent work on the truck rail, injectors, battery maintenance, chasing wires, lift pump testing, cp3 replacement, fca removal. Any corroded/cracked wires or pins could've easily moved and lost connection.

But..... I Just dropped and destroyed my multimeter when I started it and it fell off the fender, lol figures. New one will be here tomorrow.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Alright printed out your checklist, pinout for ECM and PCM, fca connector, fuel pump connector. Looked at 8W-15 and it's a nightmare.. going to just chase obvious grounds while testing.
 

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Section 8w-01 explains what all symbols mean, takes some time to get use to, but if own older 3rd gen going to save you a lot of time, money and aggravation .
Using 8w-15 and 8W-91 CONNECTOR/GROUND/SPLICE LOCATION drawings can locate almost all connections/grounds/ splices for troubleshooting/repair.;)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Ok so finally got somewhere this weekend.
  • checked batteries 12.55 each, checked when connected 12.55 at both terminals
  • Pulled ECM connectors both coated at pins in oil/diesel sprayed ecm connections and connector pins with contact cleaner and blew dry with a pin air blower.
  • started resistance testing with the battery + pins on C1 and C2 got good readings on 5V supply 25 & 27 on C1 then stopped getting readings on all + pins including 25 & 27. Turned key off and on a couple times.... nothing on 5V supply pins, fused B+ pins, CcD Bus + pin on both C1 & C2.
  • frustrated on how that was happening started checking grounds on C2( no grounds on C1) checked at 1.7 ohms at 21, 49, 50. So good there.
  • thinking that maybe it was the oil on the connectors causing an issue I plugged the ECM connectors back in tightened them and started the truck. With my son sitting in the seat as I played with wires and looked for leaks around the injector connector lines. Idled for about 15 minutes without dieing... able to build pressure (in park) up to 12-14k drops down to 5/6k ok... idled longer down to 3k at idle and but still builds back up didn't survive this long before but still dropping too low.. decided to pull the fca plug while it idled to see what it did (supposed to shoot the rail pressure up) nothing, no change. plugged it back in.... no change. The shop said it ohm tested the fca and it was fine.. is this possibly my culprit?
 
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