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Discussion Starter #1
okay fellas, i am relativly new to the forum scene, and this is my virgin post on this one, so here we go!

i am looking for a donor cummins to inplant into the truck in my sig, i have decided to go with a 12 valve for the reliability and simplicity of being mechanical, and the 94-98 because of the legendary p7100's power potential. i have been looking for a complete truck for some time now but for some reason nobody wants to get rid of their truck for what i want to pay for a engine and tranny:confused013:, go figure. so looking at used engines that outlasted the shell built around them has come to be my next best option, but thats okay to because after some more research i found i want a nv4500 out of a 98.5+ that came behind the 24v not 12v.

i found several engines for a reasonable price (to me, ie. 1250-2000) but they all seem to be higher milage (again to me, ie. 200,000-400,000). im looking for a donor to "freshen up and fire ring", not something thats going to need a major overhaul.

i have a engine im interested in but its 6 hours away and i want to be sure its what i want before i go look at it because if i go that far i want to be at least 95% sure ill buy it unless i notice something catastrophically wrong with it.

so i need some advice from all you cummins connoisseurs out there on what im looking for, what questions i need to ask, and what tools i need to bring to do as much diagnostics on a engine that is out of the the vechile as i can?

as far as what i already know about the engine is the seller is asking 2000 obo, he says it has 2500rpm gov springs, it has 66,000 miles, its out of a ford bus. the engine id tag, or as much of it as i can read states,
manufactured by cummins engine co. for ford motor co.
dom 10-4-1994
cid 359 / L 5.9
model # b5.9-190
cpl 1351 (im not 100% about the "3")
timing tdc 11.5*
valve lash cold int .010" exh .020"
firing order 1 5 3 6 2 4
ford p/n F4HT-5007-JGATN4A
hp 190 at 2300 rpm

there is quite a bit of other info on the tag and i can read the numbers but cant really tell what the numbers are for.

any info you could give to help me make a more informed purchase would be a huge help and if there is any more questions i need to ask the seller or any questions you have i may be able to answer let me know

sorry for being so long winded but thanks a million for taking your time to read this and thanks even more if you take your time to post any info helpful to me.

otis
 

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Discussion Starter #2
just a couple more things, on the ip where the forth line from the front (or third from the rear) goes out up by the nut it looks like there was some fuel leaking, is this a big deal? how do i make sure this is a p7100, so i dont end up with a p3000 or anything else?

thanks again
 

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Do a Search for "53" Block. I don't think it can be one with a DOM in 1994, But I would be aware, and check before I purchase......
 

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The NV4500 transmissions installed since '94 are nearly identical to the '98s and later. The only difference is the top covers and speed sensor mounting on the tail shaft of 2WD models. '98s and later do not have them.

You will be somewhat limited to power with the 190 pump. Since you mention "fire ring" that apparantly is a concern. P7100s come with a variety of cams and DVs, so just changing plates might not give you the performance you are looking for. If I had to guess, I would say 325 to 350 hp would be the limit and that would be big bucks for injectors and an adequate turbo. In addition, $2k is way too much. If you look thru the classifieds here you can find a Dodge engine for less than that, I did.
 

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man !

tell us where you are at and maybe some of the fellas can help find one!

u help us we help you

there has got to be one closer school bus engines like garbage truck engines take a lot of abuse from inexperienced /non caring drivers with fleet maintenance schedules that are basic unless the rig is in cold country.

that said, we have had some real success with bus engines
look in the local big truck wrecking yards for b model cummins
they generally come with a warranty but will ask for a core exchange usually

miller truck salvage in portland oregon had a few for about 2000 or so.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Do a Search for "53" Block. I don't think it can be one with a DOM in 1994, But I would be aware, and check before I purchase......
it sounds like those are mostly isb engines although it would be sad to end up with something someone cobbled together to get rid of:buttkick:

The NV4500 transmissions installed since '94 are nearly identical to the '98s and later. The only difference is the top covers and speed sensor mounting on the tail shaft of 2WD models. '98s and later do not have them.

You will be somewhat limited to power with the 190 pump. Since you mention "fire ring" that apparantly is a concern. P7100s come with a variety of cams and DVs, so just changing plates might not give you the performance you are looking for. If I had to guess, I would say 325 to 350 hp would be the limit and that would be big bucks for injectors and an adequate turbo. In addition, $2k is way too much. If you look thru the classifieds here you can find a Dodge engine for less than that, I did.
i read somewhere that the 98.5 and newer had better syncros and some other updaded small parts that make it a little more desireable, not saying id be opposed to the earlier one just that if i run across a 98+ id pick that first. either way id have it rebuilt with the 1-3/8" input and updated 5th gear nut and anything else i find to make it as reliable as possible. i would really like a nv5600 but not many people want to get rid of them and anyone that does wants quite a chunk of change for it!

why do you think that about the pump? not saynig your wrong, im just not that educated on this suff yet. it seems pretty easy to get into the 400-500hp range with things like delivery valves, gov springs, fuel plate, timing, injectors, and turbo. even on the 94 auto trucks with a lower rated ip, or is it that the light duty trucks have a pump that is that much differnt than medium duty applications?

man !

tell us where you are at and maybe some of the fellas can help find one!

u help us we help you

there has got to be one closer school bus engines like garbage truck engines take a lot of abuse from inexperienced /non caring drivers with fleet maintenance schedules that are basic unless the rig is in cold country.

that said, we have had some real success with bus engines
look in the local big truck wrecking yards for b model cummins
they generally come with a warranty but will ask for a core exchange usually

miller truck salvage in portland oregon had a few for about 2000 or so.
im in tekamah nebraska its about an hour north of omaha, and any help finding a good deal would be great. i dont have to have it now as i am just starting to accumlate the parts for a swap and this truck is one of my daily drivers so i want all the parts i think i will need befor i jump. i have found i can save a lot of cash and headaches if i take my time gathering parts and doing research first, before tearing into a project and having to buy the first thing that comes along just to get back on the road. i have learned this lesson the hard way, way to many times:banghead:, i just get to excited sometimes!
 

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you would have to verify the pump internals.

But really, any of them will support a pretty warmed over engine without anything major done to the pump. The biggest issue with cams is the fact that some do not allow sufficient fill time, which means high rpm fueling is extremely limited.

But in the end of it all, if your building something wild, it really doesnt matter as the cam could be swapped for something more desireable.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
the way i understand is a 160hp ip out of a 94 auto will support 160hp, 215hp ip in a 98 manual will support 215hp, a 300hp out of a marine app. will support 300hp. you can change fuel plates and timing to squeeze a bit more out of any of them, but to get your ip to be feeding fuel in the 500hp range (wich from what i understand is not outragous for these engines), you have to upgrade the delivery valves, istall 3-4kgsk, and i guess change the cam (in the ip, not the engine?). but if you have to do any of these mods it wouldnt matter what pump you have as long as its a p7100 they all take the same parts for the same price?

is this even close, or am i way off base?

i feel like a third grader in high school!
 

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I think its all controlled just by fuel delivery I.E. fuel plates and delivery valves, possibly a cam(in marine applications) but i might be wrong....... This is not a real big deal here but thought id throw it out there...Doesnt the engine mount different on commercial size truck rather than a pickup???? Seems like you have to change mounts or something. IdK I thought i remember a mechanic telling me that, His i believe came from a UPS truck...... Dont believe it would be a problem to fab new one though.
 

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Yes and no...

A 160 pump was built to feed a ~160hp engine, 215hp pump -215hp, 370hp pump-370hp, ect...

Any of them are capable of supporting alot more hp. Its just that some are more capable than others, and this is mostly due to the cam design (yes the injection pump cam) and plunger type.

Any pump can support any kind of power you wish, granted some will cost more to get there than others (pump parts and labor arent cheap!)

What exactly are your goals?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
i would like to see power in the mid 400 range with a single turbo. when i find a engine i plan on having the rotating assembly ballanced, and rods polished, h-11 rod bolts, arp main studs, head studs, fire ringed, and of course any machiene work as needed (ie bored, align honed, valve job and guides, ect.), you get the idea. i know its probably overkill but if it helps with longevity its just insurance and its worth it to me. eventually i would like twin turbos but that will be after every thing else is up to par, the twins will be more for keeping egts down again to help with longevity, but if i get a bit more power and they push me closer to the 500hp range that wouldnt hurt my feelings.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
cummins dont have glow plugs? how do you do a compression check, if they dont have glow plugs? do you have to take out the injectors or is there a better way? is there a tool to take out the injectors and is there a adapter for the copression tester made specifically for the cummins? just thought a comp. test might be a good start in checking a engines condition.
 

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for that kind of power, you dont need to be worried about the pump, pretty much anything will support 500hp (their are more than a handfull of UNTOUCHED 160hp pumps pushing 500+hp)

IMO you are absolutely wasting your money if you go ahead as you plan.

Fire rings are a no-no for anything that sees some driving, their longevity is known to be piss poor. though o-ringing the head and head studs wouldnt be a bad idea...

for 4-500hp, you dont need to be worried about internals yet. Your money is better spent on the injectors and turbo that will get you to your goal.
 

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cummins dont have glow plugs? how do you do a compression check, if they dont have glow plugs? do you have to take out the injectors or is there a better way? is there a tool to take out the injectors and is there a adapter for the copression tester made specifically for the cummins? just thought a comp. test might be a good start in checking a engines condition.
Compression checks are done by pulling injectors. search around, theirs a real easy trick for pulling them involving a lugnut and a piece of tube LOL

But, compression tests are really not the best test, what will really give you an idea of engine condition is a blowby test. search around for blowby testing and how to make a homemade manometer.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
are these things really that durable, you can tripple the power rating and still not be woried about the internals? wow!

whats the difference in fire ringing and o ringing what one is cutting a grove in the head and/or block then installing a copper wire (thats what i think of when i think fire ring) and what is involved in in the other way

thanks for the heads up on blow by testing, good info
 

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are these things really that durable, you can tripple the power rating and still not be woried about the internals?
I am aquainted with a man who rolled 800+ HP with a '97 12valve on #2 diesel only. That was almost 10 years ago, he is one of the pioneers in Cummins modifications. He did a lot of pump work, some head work, intake,exhaust and a huge turbo (now wishes he had used twins). He never touched the bottom of the engine. It is his opinion, based on multiple dyno runs, that 160 pumps will not support over 400 hp no matter what else you have installed. They just won't move enough fuel. I doubt he ever worked with a 190 hp school bus engine.

Before you start reinventing the wheel, there are quite a few people who have been there and done that. I am not one of them, but if I wanted to see 500hp I would spend a lot of time with several of them. I would much rather spend the $$ once on the right set of twins than go thru four or five singles and/or twin setups. I very well might invest in a set of "towing twins" when I rebuild the engine that is currently in my truck. I know where to go to get that information if I need it. I don't want to sound like I'm bashing any forum members, but I want to have a face to face type relationship with the guy(s) who recommend high performance modifications. There is a lot of good info on the internet, but also a lot of B.S. and there are times that determining a faceless username's credentials is very difficult.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
would that be a stock 160hp pump or one thats been modified to its limits will still only make 400 horse max?
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
found a 95 cummins with a nv4500 2 wheel drive with 280,000 for 2600 bucks, if i am replacing the output shaft to do the updated 5th gear nut can i just use a 4wd tailhousing or is it more hassle than that? what do you guys think of this deal? if i buy a whole truck i can drive it home and i get the intercooler too.

it had already sold:(
 

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a barebones (untouched)160hp pump has supported over 500hp on more than a few occasions...

Like i have mentioned before, its biggest downfall is the cam design which does not allow sufficient fill time at high rpms.

If your looking to build a 'slap together' low dollar engine to barely squeeze [email protected], your not going to get that out of a 160 pump. it just cant move that kind of fuel at high rpms.

Now, if you were to build a decent engine (efficiency and tuning is key) and you can get your peak hp down into a reasonable RPM, the 160hp pump can do it.

It all comes down to how much you want to spend and how much work and research you want to do. a 180/215 pump will meet your goals alot easier if you jut want to slap a bunch of parts together and hope for the best!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
this is not going to be a slap together type deal, i want to start off with the correct base the first time. i realize this is going to be a trial and error type project, and there will be tuning and testing and retuning involved, but this is what i call "PLAY". i am trying to do some research on this project to educate myself a little better before i jump in head first, thats why im asking all these questions. i like this forum because i want peoples honest opinions, experences, and knowledge. i dont want misleading advertisements telling me why there product is the best, i want to hear it from a customer.

all of you have been a great help so far, thanks again
 
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