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So ATF really helps?


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Yes. Lots of threads on this subject. I would research on here if you're interestedin using it.
 

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ATF is "Old School" technology along with using old motor oil. ATF is loaded with ash based detergents which, when burned, do leave hard deposits behind in the fuel and exhaust systems. Not to mention, that if you get caught, they'll lock you up and throw away the key! And, not just here in Kalifornia.
I don't care that it's old school it works and why would they lock you up? Pull fuel sample, comes out red, they write you up and send it in for testing, comes back ATF charges dropped.

BTW 1 quart 2SO and 1 quart ATF the fuel isn't red it's a blueish tint, I noticed that when I changed my fuel filter.
 

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About 1 oz per gallon for ATF and up to 1 oz per gallon for 2SO.

After I do my Fummins build I'll experiment more but current thinking for me is if it runs fine on just diesel then 1 quart ATF and 2SO every now and then (2-3 per year maybe) if not then 1/2 an ounce of 2SO per gallon every fill-up and ATF + extra 2SO every now and then.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
FWIW, Ill run 16 oz of atf every 3 or 4 tanks. The rest of the time, I use a quart of 2SO every tank. I got a record 17.2 city mpg last tank with nothing more than just 2SO and diesel in the tank. I think as my overall oil content goes up I am seeing better economy from the FCA and injectors metering fuel more accurately. Thats probably a really good lie I am telling myself, buts what im going with.

Went drag racing on this current tank... That made it run much better as well. lol
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention mpg. On that 500 mile round trip I first ran the ATF in, I got 19.7 mpg hand calc'd. This was almost all highway, cruise on 68 in hilly southern IN and no "hypermiling". :grin2:
 
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Atf, the stuff we use is not modern. No deposits were left at the nozzle holes of the injectors i pulled and ran atf on for 35-40k+ miles. On some of the tips it is clear that the atf cleared out deposits that had formed over the previous miles of use and restored performance to a level i bad no idea had passed.

Being new to the forum you missed the conversations on this topic, it has been beat to death. All of us who use it are aware if the pros and cons associated with its use... All i can say beyond that is atf cleared what power service use left behind.
I'm not new to the forum and I actively follow a lot of the posts. I even got myself a winter front after following one of your chains! Although, people should be aware that while adding ATF may provide some benefit, there is also potential significant downside. As far as injectors looking clean...is this by eye, microscope, or bench test. If I am not mistaken, the injector opening is about 2 micron (hard ash deposits smaller than that) whereas a good set of human eyes is lucky to see in the 40-50 micron rating. So, looking clean doesn't necessarily mean clean.
 

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I'm not new to the forum and I actively follow a lot of the posts. I even got myself a winter front after following one of your chains! Although, people should be aware that while adding ATF may provide some benefit, there is also potential significant downside. As far as injectors looking clean...is this by eye, microscope, or bench test. If I am not mistaken, the injector opening is about 2 micron (hard ash deposits smaller than that) whereas a good set of human eyes is lucky to see in the 40-50 micron rating. So, looking clean doesn't necessarily mean clean.
Steve used a microscope. That where those pictures came from...

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I don't care that it's old school it works and why would they lock you up? Pull fuel sample, comes out red, they write you up and send it in for testing, comes back ATF charges dropped.

BTW 1 quart 2SO and 1 quart ATF the fuel isn't red it's a blueish tint, I noticed that when I changed my fuel filter.
They don't care if the fuel sample comes out red or not. That is for road tax purposes. EPA and Air Resource Boards concern is the emission coming out of the tail pipe. The fine is $10k if I'm not mistaken. They use "point and shoot" devices to get there readings. I actually watched this happen at a landfill digester gas plant last week. While odds are you won't get caught...it sure would suck if you were. Also sucks the vehicles behind you on the road that have breath it.
 

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They aren't going to write you a ticket for putting stuff in your tank that you added in there.

IIRC, you can only be charged 1000 dollars a gallon up to 10 gallons for red diesel. I think that's what it is.

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They don't care if the fuel sample comes out red or not. That is for road tax purposes. EPA and Air Resource Boards concern is the emission coming out of the tail pipe. The fine is $10k if I'm not mistaken. They use "point and shoot" devices to get there readings. I actually watched this happen at a landfill digester gas plant last week. While odds are you won't get caught...it sure would suck if you were. Also sucks the vehicles behind you on the road that have breath it.
Thats like arresting/charging/convicting you of murder, because you own a gun.... without any evidence or even testing of said gun. The dye test may be enough to get you charged, but they have to prove the dye is related to offroad/tax free diesel. There is no law preventing me from putting red food coloring in my tank if I want, but that doesnt mean I am illegally running offroad/tax free fuel.

As far as emissions, there are no emissions where I live, for anything. So the feds cannot legally come in and charge anybody with anything regarding emissions. A lot of states/counties/cities have emissions for cars, but older diesel trucks that were pre-08 emission trucks, are exempt. The feds cant do anything about what comes out of my tailpipe.

Not to mention, if their testing devices cant discriminate between the red dye in the offroad/tax free fuel, and ATF, then they have no business testing in the first place, and are opening themselves up for a huge lawsuit. And trust me, this is coming from a guy who has no sympathy for the guys who are too cheap to pay the road taxes like the rest of us, and running offroad diesel on the road. I dont know how many guys I have seen with a long list of big HP parts like injectors/pumps/turbos etc... but are too cheap to afford the fuel for their truck :confused013:
 
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I'm not new to the forum and I actively follow a lot of the posts. I even got myself a winter front after following one of your chains! Although, people should be aware that while adding ATF may provide some benefit, there is also potential significant downside. As far as injectors looking clean...is this by eye, microscope, or bench test. If I am not mistaken, the injector opening is about 2 micron (hard ash deposits smaller than that) whereas a good set of human eyes is lucky to see in the 40-50 micron rating. So, looking clean doesn't necessarily mean clean.
Sorry, my bad... just saw the low post count and assumed...

Yeah I used a scope on it's greatest magnification for some of the shots. Illuminating from the solenoid side showed no debris in the openings. One injector still has its needle stuck, have not tried to get it out so I've only looked at 5/6.
 

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Sorry, my bad... just saw the low post count and assumed...

Yeah I used a scope on it's greatest magnification for some of the shots. Illuminating from the solenoid side showed no debris in the openings. One injector still has its needle stuck, have not tried to get it out so I've only looked at 5/6.
In a perfect world, it would have been awesome to have mic'd the openings in some way, before ATF, and after extended use of ATF, to see if there was any extra wear from its use :thumbup:
 

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In a perfect world, it would have been awesome to have mic'd the openings in some way, before ATF, and after extended use of ATF, to see if there was any extra wear from its use :thumbup:
You could do this in a sense. Flow testing would kind of give you an idea.

Or if you could import the picture of the injector tip into a modeling software, you could scale the image to a known measurement and then measure the hole.

I vote flow test would be the best way haha
 

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I think the wear comes at the needle valve seat and not so much at the outlet holes.

Back in Minn another Cummins owner replaced his nozzles and brought in one of the tips. They had a more powerful scope and a center light on it to light up the bottom of the nozzle on the inside where the needle seats... No camera on it, otherwise I'd snapped a pic or two.
 

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Thats what I was referring to :thumbup: Sorry, should have been more specific
 
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