Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum banner

21 - 40 of 59 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
373 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
The synthetics might not even need viscosity modification to get the desired range.

From what I was reading, I thought that they start with the lowest weight oil and then add the Viscosity Index Improvers (VII) to get it up to the highest range when hot. Not sure how a 5W oil can get to 40 without it. But then, I don't really understand the synthetics and the different groups.:confused013:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
451 Posts
The synthetics might not even need viscosity modification to get the desired range.



From what I was reading, I thought that they start with the lowest weight oil and then add the Viscosity Index Improvers (VII) to get it up to the highest range when hot. Not sure how a 5W oil can get to 40 without it. But then, I don't really understand the synthetics and the different groups.:confused013:
I don't completely understand it myself. I just know that they can tailor how the oil behaves in the production process. Think of it as having a temperature response that falls off.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
OK, being an old retiree and not much to do except read too much into things, I have tried to understand what would be the best viscosity Synthetic oil to use in my truck. I know what the owner’s manual says, and I live in FL. So, I have been using 15W-40 (T4, T5). The last couple oil changes I used, 5W40 (T6, and then Valvoline). I really liked the Valvoline Extreme the best as the engine ran so smooth with good mileage. Amazon has it for sale at $59.70 for case of 3. I see now that the Shell T6 comes in 15W-40 at $89.64 for case of 3. So, my recent oil change, I went with T6 15W-40. The reason I used it was that when I ordered the Valvoline 5W-40, it go returned to Amazon undeliverable for whatever reason, so I reordered the T6 to try. It seems to run good, but I still like the Valvoline better. Now, my question is, why does Shell have the 15W-40 and Valvoline doesn’t. I tried to read about all these Viscosity Index Improvers, to the point of my old brain exploding. The only thing I got out of all this is that it does seem to take a lot of Viscosity Improvers to get the oil from 5W to 40 when hot. I’m not sure that much improvers will actually hold up good enough to really keep the oil at 40 when hot for the duration of the oil change. Seems that the less Improvers needed, as in 15W-40, would be better in keeping the range required. Am I reading too much into this?:stirpot:
As another old retiree, i have done a lot of reading as well.

I hate VI improvers, I once took an engine apart , the top rings were stuck so bad being gummed up by VI improvers that spring tension would not pop them out of piston thus zero contact with cylinder wall, was using 20-50 Kendall racing oil , changed every 2000 miles , this is when i stared using Amsoil in the late 70's.

Now i use Amsoil 10-30 due to the fact it contains no VI improvers:

"AMSOIL 10W-30/SAE 30 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel Oil is formulated with premium synthetic base oils that exceed both 10W-30 multi-grade and SAE 30 straight-grade viscosity requirements for outstanding performance in modern and older diesel engines. Unlike conventional SAE 30 motor oils, AMSOIL Heavy Duty Diesel Oil has a naturally high viscosity index and does not contain paraffin (wax). It has a low pour point and qualifies for SAE 10W, making it an all-season multi-grade lubricant with a wide operating temperature range. AMSOIL Heavy Duty Diesel Oil is formulated without viscosity index (VI) improvers. This shear-stable formulation is designed to reduce viscosity loss and associated bearing and cylinder bore wear."

It cost $33/Gal but is worth it for my piece of mind

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/diesel/synthetic-sae-10w-30-sae-30-heavy-duty-motor-oil/?code=ACD1G-EA
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
This is a straight 30 weight oil that has such a high quality base stock (containing no paraffin that gels first as temperatures drop) that it effectively has low temperature properties equal to a 10 weight oil)

Pure as 100% gold
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,145 Posts
As another old retiree, i have done a lot of reading as well.

I hate VI improvers, I once took an engine apart , the top rings were stuck so bad being gummed up by VI improvers that spring tension would not pop them out of piston thus zero contact with cylinder wall, was using 20-50 Kendall racing oil , changed every 2000 miles , this is when i stared using Amsoil in the late 70's.

Now i use Amsoil 10-30 due to the fact it contains no VI improvers:

"AMSOIL 10W-30/SAE 30 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel Oil is formulated with premium synthetic base oils that exceed both 10W-30 multi-grade and SAE 30 straight-grade viscosity requirements for outstanding performance in modern and older diesel engines. Unlike conventional SAE 30 motor oils, AMSOIL Heavy Duty Diesel Oil has a naturally high viscosity index and does not contain paraffin (wax). It has a low pour point and qualifies for SAE 10W, making it an all-season multi-grade lubricant with a wide operating temperature range. AMSOIL Heavy Duty Diesel Oil is formulated without viscosity index (VI) improvers. This shear-stable formulation is designed to reduce viscosity loss and associated bearing and cylinder bore wear."

It cost $33/Gal but is worth it for my piece of mind

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/diesel/synthetic-sae-10w-30-sae-30-heavy-duty-motor-oil/?code=ACD1G-EA

Is it certified API CK-4? Or for that matter is it certified to any standard recognized by the industry. If the answer is no then I would not use it especially if still under warranty. It is snake oil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
451 Posts
Is it certified API CK-4? Or for that matter is it certified to any standard recognized by the industry. If the answer is no then I would not use it especially if still under warranty. It is snake oil.
Probably nothing wrong with it despite using the "recommended" weasel words in the description of standards instead of "meets." At the same time probably not worth $33/gallon.

Modern lubricants are all good enough that if they meet spec and you change them regularly they'll work just fine....even generic stuff on the shelf at wally world...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,198 Posts
ticat928 - I am a firm believer in the CI-4+ 10w30/30w Amsoil ACD for anything pre 2007 and/or deleted.

Its production has been discontinued; however, I picked up the last 16 gallons from the closest stocking warehouse late last year, as there's nothing better for the 6.0 & 7.3 HEUI systems that we use in the fields.

What year is your truck, if you don't mind me asking? Perhaps fill out your signature? There are excellent alternatives from both Amsoil & others available.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
ticat928 - I am a firm believer in the CI-4+ 10w30/30w Amsoil ACD for anything pre 2007 and/or deleted.

Its production has been discontinued; however, I picked up the last 16 gallons from the closest stocking warehouse late last year, as there's nothing better for the 6.0 & 7.3 HEUI systems that we use in the fields.

What year is your truck, if you don't mind me asking? Perhaps fill out your signature? There are excellent alternatives from both Amsoil & others available.
Updated Sig

The only Amsoil products I buy are those that list Flash point and Fire point.

If not listed i assume the high end base stocks of past oils are no longer being used.

In order to maintain the Unicorn gas mileage i am getting is to use oils that have the highest possible Flash point so oil stays on top ring during combustion stroke instead of turning into carbon deposits that gum up ring lands.

If emission components fail I will delete regardless of warranty.

Since the day i allowed Toyota to do a TSB on my Tundra 5.7 i will never let another dealer touch my Truck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,198 Posts
Ah.

If undeleted, may I suggest any of the Max Duty Signature Series diesel CK4 oils for your 2017, if you want to stick to Amsoil; the grade used would depend on your ambient/usage.

For instance - DME 15w40 has approx 2% VII, as opposed to the excellent CI-4+ AME 15w40, which already has a very low 4% or so VII in the package. The 10w30 Max Duty (10w30s by definition use minimal VIIs in both diesel & gasoline flavors) has a little less than 2% VII content.

Besides, today's base stocks & VIIs appear to be quite a bit better than those from a couple decades back, including valve train/turbo deposits; and a marginal VII amount like I described above actually has some benefits, from what I hear.

It's easier today to use a heavier base stock for less wear, while lowering the CCV/MRV values, with current formulations.

Their adding 99-100ppm of esterified boron to the Max Duty CK-4 oils, ensures we have a winner for cold start anti wear, before their very marginally lower ZDDP (compared to their CI-4+) kicks in under high heat conditions.

As far as flash/fire point, I'm told that they're comparable, at a minimum, to the older CI-4+ oils like AME, ACD & AMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
790 Posts
Ticat828, just to help clarify, 10w30 is not a 10 weight when cold. Oil is thermoplastic, ot is thick when cold, thins as it warms until such a temp where it begins to coke up and oxidize.

The w refers to a cold flow bracket that an oil has to meet. Astm outlines those tests. If I recall, 10w is tested at -25c. 5w at -30 and 0w at -35C.

Weight often refers to viscosity, which again is defined by astm testing. 30 weight falls around that 9 to 13cSt at 100c and 40 weight is like 13 to 16 or something.

Less VII can be a good thing for durabilty but I figure they and oils have come a long way from a few decades ago. I don't think they pose any issues in a standard or slightly extended oil change index, in a stock engine. I do see that the more VII used, the more shear prone an oil can be. Not that shear is the death of an oil.

The semi synth 10w30 I use barely shears in a full index, even with fuel dilution past 2%.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
194 Posts
Probably nothing wrong with it despite using the "recommended" weasel words in the description of standards instead of "meets." At the same time probably not worth $33/gallon.

Modern lubricants are all good enough that if they meet spec and you change them regularly they'll work just fine....even generic stuff on the shelf at wally world...
Definitely not worth $33 a gallon. Especially when you consider the fact that many people use the Walmart brand dino oil which can be had for under $20 for a 2 gallon jug with ZERO PROBLEMS for hundreds of thousands of miles.
It's not like Amsoil would hype up their product just to get people to believe the marketing hype, right? :stirpot:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,198 Posts
Unfortunately, up here across the border, full synthetic Amsoil is cheaper than both dino Rotella & semi syn Rotella.

I'll support a domestic small company who keeps prices the same on both sides of the border 8 days a week, rather than a foreign company indulging in price gouging across the border.

Cheaper, & much better in cold weather. A small win for us up here.

Prices per gallon (1.25 gallon jug for the $104 semi syn Rotella) - Rotella at Walmart compared to CK-4 Amsoil; the CI-4+ Amsoil for pre '07.5 trucks is cheaper yet.

As far as "recommended" - there's plenty of major brand oils that avoid certification costs as well. In the case of the 15w40 oil I use, the zinc/phos levels are higher than what Greta Thunberg mandates to Shell & Exxon/Mobil. I'm good with that.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
451 Posts
Too much zddp? It's funny, people go outside the design parameters of the system and then are shocked when parts of the system fail.

ZDDP is a holdover from the 1940s and high performance aircraft engines. ZDDP is no more necessary on a modern engine than using leaded gas is, because of higher quality base oil, other newer additives, new engine designs, and better metallurgy.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,198 Posts
ZDDP at CI-4+ levels is just fine for my pre 2007.5 engine.

In good shape, it won't poison cat cons or cause global warming.

The Cummins inline 6 is a "modern engine" ?

To each their own, the engine doesn't really care about oil as much as the owners do.

Unless it has flat tappets ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,755 Posts
Too much zddp? It's funny, people go outside the design parameters of the system and then are shocked when parts of the system fail.

ZDDP is a holdover from the 1940s and high performance aircraft engines. ZDDP is no more necessary on a modern engine than using leaded gas is, because of higher quality base oil, other newer additives, new engine designs, and better metallurgy.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
If you've got an old hobby car with a flat tappet cam in it, You need to either run a good synthetic or a good dino oil with ZDDP in it. Pretty good idea.


When our wonderfu(ly stupid) EPA forced the Oil Refineries to leave out ZDDP beacuse it has a bad habit of destroying Catalytic Converters, they didn't bother to even tell their Race Teams in naGMar. They were grenading engines left and right.... Shell, Texaco, Mobil, Chevron cars were blowing up because their sponsors neglected to tell them they changed the oil. brilliant

naGMar used flat tappet cams until way after I lost interest in them. They still might. That's cutting edge there, huh?? :hehe:

They finally went to synthetic after they blew up about every engine they had. Turn left......

Not to mention their sooper-hi-tech pushrod engines that nobody this side of the Urals use anymore except in HD Trucks..... And Generic Motors and little Tony

Also, a lot of the older Boats that use Generic Motors engines have flat tappet cams in them.

With roller cams, you don't really need the lubricity of ZDDP for the camshaft.

word
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,002 Posts
Unfortunately, up here across the border, full synthetic Amsoil is cheaper than both dino Rotella & semi syn Rotella.

I'll support a domestic small company who keeps prices the same on both sides of the border 8 days a week, rather than a foreign company indulging in price gouging across the border.

Cheaper, & much better in cold weather. A small win for us up here.

Prices per gallon (1.25 gallon jug for the $104 semi syn Rotella) - Rotella at Walmart compared to CK-4 Amsoil; the CI-4+ Amsoil for pre '07.5 trucks is cheaper yet.

As far as "recommended" - there's plenty of major brand oils that avoid certification costs as well. In the case of the 15w40 oil I use, the zinc/phos levels are higher than what Greta Thunberg mandates to Shell & Exxon/Mobil. I'm good with that.
CT offers T4 for less than that even when not on sale. I buy Rotella T6 when on sale ($133 for 18.9L pail) when they offer the mail-in rebate on top of that. Just about the best price I can get for 5W40.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,198 Posts
That's good to know Lins, thank you :thumbup:

Not being a believer in 5w40, I will look for T6 15w40 on sale at CT.

In all honesty, it's easier for me to get PAO Amsoil 15w40 at $43 CAD a gallon rather than haunt the aisles/websites for Group 3 Rotella on sale.

When I don't have time to let the Webastos run, I find the 15w40 Amsoil brings up oil pressure about as quick as the T6 5w40 Rotella down to about -25c. Below that, there's no rush, I let the Webastos run for 20-30 minutes.

Since I don't have monthly payments on my '91.5 or the '18s, I don't mind spending an extra $11.50 per gallon once a year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,755 Posts
That's good to know Lins, thank you :thumbup:

Not being a believer in 5w40, I will look for T6 15w40 on sale at CT.

In all honesty, it's easier for me to get PAO Amsoil 15w40 at $43 CAD a gallon rather than haunt the aisles/websites for Group 3 Rotella on sale.

When I don't have time to let the Webastos run, I find the 15w40 Amsoil brings up oil pressure about as quick as the T6 5w40 Rotella down to about -25c. Below that, there's no rush, I let the Webastos run for 20-30 minutes.

Since I don't have monthly payments on my '91.5 or the '18s, I don't mind spending an extra $11.50 per gallon once a year.
Well, Cummins must believe in it because it's factory fill on all new ISB Engines. And before it was T6, they used Valvoline Extreme 5w-40 syn as factory fill.

But, what do they know? They're just the biggest Diesel Engine producer on the Planet :confused013:

#38

https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/2013-2018-general-discussion/2502157-2019-2500-6-7-factory-oil-4.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,198 Posts
Not only am I an old fashioned dinosaur, but I just prefer to rely on what I've experienced rather than factory Cummingsz 53 blocks, KDP issues, and other such nonsense like kickback endorsement Power Service with the big C on the bottles, CPEC advertising & lowest possible denominator "Extreme" 5w40.

Perhaps I should just get with the times & change my findings to sync with the "world's most prolific diesel engine manufacturer's" popular vote.

What next - Fleetgard card locks with fuel optimized to provide a better air mixture to ensure longevity of the grid heater bolts? Not sure whether that's a Cummins or FCA thing :confused013:

Well, Cummins must believe in it because it's factory fill on all new ISB Engines. And before it was T6, they used Valvoline Extreme 5w-40 syn as factory fill.

But, what do they know? They're just the biggest Diesel Engine producer on the Planet :confused013:

#38

https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/2013-2018-general-discussion/2502157-2019-2500-6-7-factory-oil-4.html
 
21 - 40 of 59 Posts
Top