[jmshawii]

Thanks for being here. First post. I've done a lot of searching, but can't find this EXACT info. I have a cummins 5.9 in a '96 Bluebird bus. AT, about 160K. Runs well, etc. I have let it sit since spring, and it won't start. I have had it for about 2 years with very little use, but bought it just to have the engine. When I first bought it, when starting, it would ALWAYS do the turn over a bit, click repeatedly a bit, turn over a bit, and finally fire and run. I have let the batteries die a couple of times over the years, would remove and charge them, and it would do the same thing but always start. Well, now it will only click, and I've gotten VERY minimal and super slow turnover, but mostly just clicks. I've read about replacing the starter contacts, but just want to make sure that it is not my batteries just being old and weak before I do the starter contact surgery. I have hooked up my IH 7.3 F350, with the batteries in there and got very minimal help. I have cleaned off cables and terminals, etc. I cleaned off ground cable attachment point (on the frame) and even ran a single wire ground from the batteries to the alternator bracket to try to make sure I had good ground. I have the batteries out now, and have been charging them, but they are 2 of those behemoth, 1700 CA and 1400 CCA triple size batteries that, according to NAPA weight somewhere in the 132 lbs each range, so slogging them back and forth multiple times while experimenting with this issue is not an idea I relish. I do not have a shop, and am working in a parking lot about 100 yards from my place, which is a split level kind of set up, so I have to lug the batteries up and down stairs to take them inside to charge them. And, the kicker, of course, is that funds are very tight, so I can't afford to just go buy $450 worth of batteries if that ISN'T the problem.

These 2 batteries were cabled up in series, but, MAN, that's a LOT of CA's and CCA's. Is that REALLY needed? I was hoping to drop in a couple of my lesser batteries, attach them in series, and hook up jumper cables to the 7.3 and get enough juice to start her up. So far that has not happened!

So, the moral of the question (yes, I know that;s not a real saying), is, how many CCA's should I need in a battery to get this thing to turn over??? I could maybe even go buy 2 new REGULAR size batteries that I could put in there, but between expense and size/weight, I would MUCH prefer to do that over getting 2 more giant ones! I've seen people talking about having single 925CCA batteries in their gen 1 5.9's and that was enough. So, I know it is a generalization, but what is the smallest size/powered battery I should be able to effectively trouble shoot this with?

I'm not sure if you need more info than that, but was guessing that turning over a 5.9 is turning over a 5.9, and didn't think much more detail would be needed.

Not that its URGENT, but I'm also curious as to why they WOULD use these 2 huge batteries, if most 5.9's can get away with one or two "normal" sized car batteries. I would assume that the Alt is running most of the juice for the lights on the bus, and it is a straight school, bus, no extra options or luxury model that needs lots more elec power.

Thanks for any input, ideas, thoughts, or questions that will help me work through this. City code enforcement is on me to get it moving again so it is not classified as a non-runner or abandoned! Thanks!

 

[24hrsparkey]

Buy an electronic battery tester / anilizer ( sp ) from Amizon. <50$.
Gives a nice readout and a Pass/Fail.
Cuts out all the guesswork.

One good battery will start it in mild weather IMO.

 

[9297oldram]

A 925 CCA battery will start it in mild weather like sparkey said, there is no need for those 2 huge batteries.

 

[Destroked 450]

Sounds like you have a couple of 8D batteries, those bus engines don't have grid heaters so they put big batteries in them to insure they start in cold weather.
The batteries should not be hooked up in series, that gives you 24 volts. They should be connected parallel to give lots of cranking amp at 12 volts.
If you suspect the batteries pull the ones out of you 7.3 truck and try that, if they crank it over those big batteries are bad, if they don't crank it over you've got other issues.
Before I luged those big batteries around I'd be buying a few extension cords.
I needed a long cord a few years ago, picked up a 250 ft roll of house wire and added a couple of plugs to it, later I used the wire in my shop.

 

[Kmehr]

I had a 750 CCA battery in my old 12valve for a while, if it was summer, it would start easy with just that. Like mentioned, try your 7.3 batteries. Definitely don't need to replace with the same batteries if you go with new ones. first gens came with 1,100 CCA single batteries and they start just fine.

 

[jmshawii]

Thanks for your input-and everyone else who has "inputted." Just to make sure I am being correct and clear, when I say the batteries are in series, they share ONE cable, but it has a terminal clamp mounted in line and another one at its end. Thus, both batteries send their juice through one cable. I'm pretty sure that is "in line," right? And I wondered about that, I am a "junker," and buy, work on and tinker with lots of rigs, and I also have an old retired uhaul truck 7.3 converted to flatbed with 2, less than one year old batteries in it. I thought about removing those and trying, but wanted to get some input here first. Thanks again for clarifying what I thought, but wasn't sure if the 5.9 needed a particularly high voltage/amperage. I also saw a thread titled "97 12valve wont turn over" that had a good testing strategy. I will try that next. Thanks again!

 

[GAmes]

So you won't be confused. If the two batteries have the positive poles connected and the negative poles both going to ground they are parallel. That gives you a 12 volt supply. If the batteries are connected by one positive to the other's negative, the remaining neg to ground and the remaining positive to the starter it is in series and provides 24 volts.

 

[jmshawii]

I have a Schumacher charger that claims to rate the capacity/power left in a battery. You hook it up, it shows a readout of what it thinks the volts it is getting are, and then starts charging. You can go hit a button at any time while it is charging and it will give you a readout of where it thinks it is. Some tell me they doubt how effective/accurate it is. These big batteries take a full charge, but even without taking them out and hooking them up, with them sitting atop 2 2x6's on my basement floor they go down to about 76% over the course of 2 days. I am not sure if that is normal or not. But I also keep thinking that, even at 76% of 1400 CCA, they are over 900 CCA's (hypothetically) and that should STILL be enough to start it, right? Especially with 2 hooked up? So, I am going to go ahead and run some tests, but I also DO like actually LEARNING something along the way, so am trying to learn as much about batteries as I can in this process. As for my 7.3's, I have an 89 F350 which has 2 fairly new (bought in February this year) 750CCA batteries (Wal Mart Cheapies). And I also have an old retired Uhaul that has 2 unmarked new ones put in last Novemeber by a heavy equipment rental place when they were selling it. As I said, I've never seen any markings on them, but they've always done the job. I am thinking these ones are likely the strongest I have, so maybe I should pull those and try them in the bus-although I think they only have the screw on posts, and my bus has normal clamp terminals on the cables. Thanks again for the info.

 

[jmshawii]

So, I DID learn something today. My batteries are in parallel. ONE positive cable going to both positive posts and then to starter, one negative cable going to both negative posts and then to ground. THANKS!

 

[GAmes]

As a general rule, once a lead acid is completely drained it is pretty much toast. Also, if your charger meter is showing 76% then available amperage is probably about half that. From your first post I believe you just need to replace the batteries, but if that doesn't do the trick start researching starter contacts.

Dodge Starter Problems & Tips - FAQ LarryB's

 

[Destroked 450]

Since it's a bus with a Allison truck trans it may have one of those hd truck starters on it.

 

[GAmes]

I don't think you can get more heavy duty than a Denso.

 

[Destroked 450]

Dense makes good starters but need to know what starter he has.

Denso starter for a Dodge 5.9 Cummins

Denso starter for a school bus with 5.9 Cummins

 

[GAmes]

That does look a bit beefier.

 

[u2slow]

I've dealt with a bad cell in a group 31 more than once. You can't parallel or jump start your way around it. The dead 'hole' takes the load before the starter. Bad battery has to come out of the mix.

You can most likely start your bus on a single good battery, even if its just a group 31 or 65. I might take the grid heater offline though.

Also keep the battery leads short and use a heavy gauge. ( I²*R losses)

 

[jmshawii]

I'm going to play with it today a bit, and am not sure I can find a part number or anything on the starter without taking it out (which I of course, do not WANT to do until/unless I find out I HAVE to, but can take some pics of it and try to figure it out. Yes, I am assuming that it is the larger, more heavy duty type, as it is in a bus and it does have what I have always been led to believe was the Allison Automatic in it. This being the case, should it STILL turn over with a couple of decent "single" batteries hooked up? I think my strategy right now is to go get the ones out of my retired Uhaul/flatbed, as they were actually bought by a commercial establishment that did diesel repair among other things to put into this rig, and I am assuming they are both, "higher powered" and "better" than the 2 WalMart cheapies I bought to throw in my F350 (In all fairness, when I bought it at auction it was NOT running-the reason I got it for $600-and I had no idea if it ever WOULD run, so I did cut some HUGE corners in getting it going! Now, about 18,000 miles later, I am pretty pleased with how it all turned out!). I figure if they can turn over the F350 for 20 seconds every morning (it has a starting problem, but I've been slowly tracing that as well-very possibly just that the batteries are NOT QUITE strong enough, as the 7.3's have a reputation for needing to turn over FAST to first start,) without fail, they hopefully can turn over the 5.9 enough to show me it is or is not a battery problem.

On another note, I have NO IDEA what a "grid heater" is, so will have to research that and find out how to disconnect that if I choose to. For general information, this is all happening in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where it is not COLD yet, but has gotten as low as 20 overnight, although most nights it is around freezing.

Thanks for the advice. As I said, I will possibly have more to report later on today.

 

[Destroked 450]

It doesn't take much of a battery to crank a 5.9 over, it just takes a big battery or multiples to crank one over for a long period of time.
School buses had to start no matter what the temps where so they over sized the batteries to make sure they had enough cranking power.
Also many 5.9's in industrial apps did not have grid heaters, if your does a wait to start light will come on in the dash.
It's simple, throw in some of the batteries you already have and hit the key, if it cranks over you need batteries, if it doesn't you need to check all connections before pulling the starter.
Ether of the sets of batteries you have should crank the engine over, that way your not spending money until you know what you need to spend it on.
If you do end up needing batteries I'd replace those big D8's with a couple of group 31's.

 

[jmshawii]

Okay, so I got to go out and crawl underneath the bus today (yesterday was pretty nasty and snowy-today just cold, but sunny! Ice and snow make for an interesting "Creeper" experience on the ground, BTW.

I ran through a series of tests that I found on this page on a thread called "97 12valve wont turn over." It seemed the simplest and easiest to understand way to look at it I have found. (Until I started doing the tests, of course, when only I can find an issue!)

Basically, use your jumper cables to replicate the connections to the starter. If the starter acts differently, you know it is a bad connection from the cable or wire making that connection. If the starter acts the same, you know it is (most likely) some other problem, and not the batteries or connections.


So, I installed the 2 LARGER (but not the giant size I removed from the bus) batteries (that easily and for long periods of time if necessary) that I had removed from my 1986 IH/Uhaul 1654 series flat bed car hauler conversion. These batteries were new approximately one year ago, and have no markings, but were installed by the Diesel repair shop/heavy equipment rental business I bought the truck from the day I went to test drive it. I stood and watched them put the batteries in when I showed up. They have always worked in starting that old 7.3, and it does have starting issues and often has to be turned over for some period of time before it catches and starts. They have never shown any signs of running down, etc. They are the batteries I have that I am MOST confident are up to the job. When I installed them and tried to start the Cummins, it did as always-very slow occasional turn over, intermittent clicking when the engine is NOT turning over.

So, step one, run a jumper cable from the positive battery terminal to the starter positive battery connection bolt and then try to start it. Did this-same VERY draggy starter with intermittent clicks, going to more and more clicks as you hold the key in the "start" position.

So, according to this test, not a bad cable or (+) connection.

Step two, run a jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to the starter body. Try to start. Same result-draggy, slow, turnover, hesitation, clicks, turn over, clicks, etc.

So, according to this test, not a problem with the negative cable or connection.

Third, run the cable from the positive battery terminal to the signal wire bolt on the starter. This is where I decided I wasn't COMPLETELY sure how they wanted this done. The signal wire seemed to run directly into the starter on my starter, and did not appear to have a "ring around the bolt" type of connection. There did seem to be a flat metal part that was not just part of the casing that this signal wire ran into, but it was so "nearly flush" with the casing that I feared it wasn't a separate piece at all, and MIGHT, thus, spark and scream and hurt something if I touched the positive cable to the battery terminal while it was connected. The other end of the signal wire runs up OVER the starter solenoid and goes in/connects there, and reaching it would have been a nightmare, so I decided to very trepidatiously (is that a word) try the connection I could see first. Though I know they could mount at a different angle on my bus vs on a Dodge PU, They still usually are in the same general orientation, and I assumed the writer pof this test would have commented about how hard it was to get to or connect to if it were, so I connected to the wire going INTO the flat metal piece that is nearly flush to the case of the solenoid as close as I could to the starter without touching the starter casing and got out from under the bus. I quickly touched the jumper clamp to the (+) battery terminal, and after a couple of "TOO fast" touches, made enough good contact to see a spark, yes, but also to hear the starter try to kick over a bit. Thus, I decided this WAS what was meant, that I was not going to blow up the entire town of Escanaba, MI, and that I could proceed. So, I began touching the clamp to the (+) terminal a bit more, getting more and better contact, but still was getting the same thing-VERY slow turnover. Don't recall at this point if there were clicks as well on this part of the test, but was definitely not getting QUICK turnover from the starter no matter how well I made contact with these good batteries.

So, assuming that you gents approve of this line of testing, and assuming I did these tests correctly IYO, do you agree now that it is time to take the starter off and take it in to the local auto parts store to be tested? Would someone suggest another line of testing to be done first? I can get underneath it with a multimeter as well, but I honestly do NOT have any gearhead kind of friends anywhere near that I can ask to help me do a little troubleshooting. And I'm pretty sure that these tests kind of did about the same thing that most voltmeter testing would do anyway, no? The cables are pretty decent ones and have worked every time I've ever needed them to, including last weekend when I used them to start a '74 Dodge 360 in a motorhome off of my IH 345 Scout.

I honestly don't have anyone that I think I would even ask to turn the key for me in the weather we have and in the location it is in. So I don't know that I can check the volts AT the starter when I turn the key-although since it is a flat nose bus I could MAYBE thread the meter/leads down through the engine bay and connect to the starter that way-not sure what the angle is and what all is in the way, but maybe will try that tomorrow. But, again, doesn't it SOUND like I am looking at a starter issue now?

Also, in doing research on all of this, I have seen a LOT of people claim that the turnover then click then turnover then click type of problem is often the contacts in the starter and recommend the built up contacts that someone sells and you can install them yourself. I am thinking that is the problem, but am just trying to thoroughly test everything in the right order before ordering the contacts. Thanks!

 

[9297oldram]

What ga are your jumper cables? If they aren't at least a 1 ga they probably wasn't big enough to supply the amps that the Cummins starter needed.

 

[jmshawii]

Jumper cables are not 1 ga, but I don't recall what gauge they are and I am terrible with that. They ARE decent ones from Napa, and not just K-mart super cheapies. I do know that when I have let the batteries get low before I have used these same cables and they have been a noticeable help. And along those lines, since I know they do work well currently, even if not meant to work to the level perhaps needed by this vehicle to TOTALLY jump it, for the purposes of the testing I just did, there SHOULD be SOME level of change with them connected, shouldn't there be? If it is turning slow and clicking without the jumper cables connected, wouldn't one think that with a good set of jumper cables ALSO attached to the same points as the cables, WITH THE CABLES ALSO STILL ATTACHED, that with the addition of ANOTHER clear line of connection, there should be SOME improvement if the connections or cables are bad? I am not asking them to actually start the thing, even, but this was supposed to be a test to let you know if it was bad ground, bad connections, or bad signal wire. I am thinking this test should be (fairly) definitive for that, right? He even mentioned just using a plain wire and if you simply got spark when touching the wire to the posts you knew the cables or connections were not good, and if you tapped the signal wire post it would still jump the starter even if that little wire couldn't handle the full load of trying to actually start it that way, SO I am still thinking that if this test is a valid one, my results should be good even if these are not the ideal jumper cables to use to try and truly start this bus.