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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey All,

Last week when towing with my 04.5 3500 it came out of lock up for no reason when it never should have. Since then it starts out in third and wont shift. I pulled cold P0973. I believe I've narrowed down the issue to the ECM wire that controls the relay for the Gov Solenoid as I am not getting voltage on the yellow & orange wire. I tested the yellow/blue wire that runs from the ECM to terminal 85 of the relay and it checks out good with an OHM meter. Looks like I'm not getting a ground signal from the ECM to switch the relay to send 12v to the transmission. I have my 12 volts on 86 and 30.

My question is what does the ECM need to see to provide the ground for the transmission relay? Other then his the truck acts normal. No other electrical issues. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The truck is a 2004.5 Ram 3500 325 Hp.

Thanks,

David
 

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checking for voltage really need to use test light and/or backprobe connector with connector plugged in.

Other things to check
Is that only code ?
Good fluid /clear filter?
have reverse?
have manual 1,2nd ?
3rd eventually shifts to 4th?
Electrical wiring issues are common cause of issues.
Double Check wiring harnesses ,8 pin connector and wiring in/on trans.
If wiring good second most common cause is transducer and GPS solenoid are known to fail.
Best to use Rostra 12415hp and BW 50185 upgrade solenoid.
Could also be stuck valve in valve body or bad 3-4 tcc solenoids ,they should ohm out at 25-40 ohms, I used Standard Motor Products TCS51 for replacement solenoids.

possible causes for P0973
TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY DTC PRESENT
(T9) 3-4 SOLENOID CONTROL CIRCUIT OPEN
FUSED B+ CIRCUIT OPEN
(T16) TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT OPEN
(T9) 3-4 SOLENOID CONTROL CIRCUIT SHORT TO GROUND
(T16) TRANSMISSION RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT SHORT TO GROUND
(T9) 3-4 SOLENOID CIRCUIT SHORT TO OTHER CIRCUITS
TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY - POOR CONTACTS
3-4 SHIFT SOLENOID
ENGINE CONTROL MODULE

Diagnostic Test
1. CHECK FOR TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY DTCS
Ignition on, engine not running.
With the scan tool, read Engine DTCs.
Are there any Transmission Control Relay DTCs present?
Yes >> Refer to the Transmission category, and perform the appropriate symptom(s). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/
TRANSAXLE/AUTOMATIC - 48RE - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING)
No >> Go To 2

2. CHECK IF THE DTC IS CURRENT
Ignition on, engine not running.
With the scan tool, read Engine DTCs.
Record the Freeze Frame data for the reported DTC.
With the scan tool, erase DTCs.
Turn the ignition off to the lock position.
Using the Freeze Frame data recorded earlier, try to duplicate the conditions in which the DTC originally set.
NOTE: It may be necessary to road test the vehicle to duplicate the original set conditions.
With the scan tool, read Engine DTCs.
Did the DTC reset?
Yes >> Go To 3
No >> Go To 12

3. CHECK THE (T16) TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT
Turn the ignition off to the lock position.
Disconnect the Transmission Solenoid Assembly harness connector.
NOTE: Check connectors - Clean/repair as necessary.
Ignition on, engine not running.
With the scan tool, actuate the Transmission Control Relay.
Using a 12-volt test light connected to ground, check the (T16) Transmission
Control Relay Output circuit in the Transmission Solenoid
Assembly harness connector.
NOTE: The test light must illuminate brightly. Compare the brightness
to that of a direct connection to the battery.
Does the test light cycle on and off and illuminate brightly?
Yes >> Go To 4
No >> Go To 9

4. CHECK THE 3-4 SHIFT SOLENOID
With the scan tool, actuate the Overdrive (3-4) Solenoid.
Using a 12-volt test light connected to 12-volts, check the (T9) 3-4
Shift Solenoid Control circuit in the Transmission Solenoid Assembly
harness connector.
Does the test light cycle on and off and illuminate brightly?
Yes >> Check all internal wiring pertaining to the 3-4 Shift Solenoid
for an open, short, and bent or broken terminals. If no
internal wiring problems are found, replace the Transmission
Solenoid Assembly per the Service Information.
(Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/AUTOMATIC
- 48RE/VALVE BODY - REMOVAL)
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)
No >> Go To 5

5. CHECK THE (T9) 3-4 SOLENOID CONTROL CIRCUIT FOR AN OPEN
Turn the ignition off to the lock position.
Disconnect the ECM C2 and C2 harness connectors.
Measure the resistance of the (T9) 3-4 Solenoid Control circuit
between the Transmission Solenoid Assembly harness connector and
the ECM C2 harness connector.
Is the resistance below 5.0 ohms?
Yes >> Go To 6
No >> Repair the (T9) 3-4 Solenoid Control circuit for an open.
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)

6. CHECK THE (T9 ) 3-4 SOLENOID CONTROL CIRCUIT FOR A SHORT TO GROUND
Measure the resistance between ground and the (T9) 3-4 Solenoid
Control circuit.
Is the resistance above 100k ohms?
Yes >> Go To 7
No >> Repair the (T9) 3-4 Solenoid Control circuit for a short to
ground.
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)

7. CHECK THE (T9) 3-4 SHIFT SOLENOID CONTROL CIRCUIT FOR A SHORT TO ANOTHER CIRCUIT
Measure the resistance between the (T9) 3-4 Solenoid Control circuit
and all other circuits in the ECM C1 and C2 harness connectors.
Is the resistance above 100k ohms between the (T9) 3-4 Solenoid
Control circuit and any other circuit(s) in the ECM C1 or
C2 harness connectors?
Yes >> Go To 8
No >> Repair the (T9) 3-4 Shift Solenoid Control circuit for a
short to another circuit(s).
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)

8. CHECK THE ENGINE CONTROL MODULE
Reconnect the ECM harness connectors.
Turn the ignition on, engine not running.
With the scan tool, actuate the 3-4 (Overdrive) Solenoid.
Using a 12-volt test light connected to 12-volts, check the (T9) 3-4
Solenoid Control circuit in the Transmission Solenoid Assembly harness
connector.
Does the test Light cycle on and off and illuminate brightly?
Yes >> Go To 12
No >> Using the schematics as a guide, check the Engine Control
Module (ECM) pins, terminals, and connectors for corrosion,
damage, or terminal push out. Pay particular
attention to all power and ground circuits. If no problems
are found, replace and program the ECM per the Service Information. (Refer to 8 - ELECTRICAL/ELECTRONIC
CONTROL MODULES/ENGINE CONTROL MODULE - REMOVAL)
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/
TRANSAXLE/AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)

9. CHECK THE FUSED B(+) CIRCUIT
Turn the ignition off to the lock position.
Remove the Transmission Control Relay.
Ignition on, engine not running.
Using a 12-volt test light connected to ground, check the Fused B(+)
circuit in the Transmission Control Relay connector.
Does the test light illuminate brightly?
Yes >> Go To 10
No >> Repair the Fused B(+) circuit for an open. Note: if the fuse
is open, check for a short to ground.
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)

10. CHECK THE (T16) TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT FOR A SHORT TO GROUND
Turn ignition off to the lock position.
Measure the resistance between ground and the (T16) Transmission
Control Relay Output circuit.
Is the resistance below 5.0 ohms?
Yes >> Repair the Fused Transmission Control Relay Output circuit
for a short to ground.
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)
No >> Go To 11

11. CHECK THE (T16) TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT FOR AN OPEN
Ignition on, engine not running.
Connect a jumper wire between the Fused B(+) circuit and the (T16)
Transmission Relay Output circuit in the Transmission Relay connector.
Using a 12-volt test light connected to ground, check the (T16) Transmission
Control Relay Output circuit in the Transmission Solenoid
Assembly harness connector.
Does the test light illuminate brightly?
Yes >> Replace the Transmission Control Relay.
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)
No >> Repair the (T16) Transmission Control Relay Output circuit
for an open.
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER -
1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/
AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)

12. INTERMITTENT WIRING AND CONNECTORS
The conditions necessary to set this DTC are not present at this time.
Use the Freeze Frame Data to help duplicate the conditions in which the DTC originally set. Pay particular attention
to the DTC set conditions, such as, VSS, MAP, ECT, and Load
Using the schematics as a guide, visually inspect the related wiring harness. Look for any chafed, pierced, pinched,
or partially broken wires.
Visually inspect the related wiring harness connectors. Look for broken, bent, pushed out, or corroded terminals.
Wiggle the wiring and connectors while checking for any possible open or shorted circuits.
Check for any Service Information Tune-ups or Technical Service Bulletins that may apply.
Were there any problems found?
Yes >> Repair as necessary.
Perform RE TRANSMISSION VERIFICATION TEST VER - 1 (DIESEL). (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/
TRANSAXLE/AUTOMATIC - 48RE - STANDARD PROCEDURE)
No >> Test Complete.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply.

I have been using a multimeter to check voltage, there's no voltage at the 8 pin connector and all 12v pin (believe its pin 1) OHMS out perfect all the way to the relay at the fuse box so no issues there. Fluid is new as I have just upgraded to the ATS diesel Governor solenoid and block assembly. Also installed their transducer as well.

I have manual 1 - 3 gears if i shift from park to first and then upshift but wont pass 3rd gear. If I don't shift it stays in 3rd.

What does the ECM need to see in order to send ground to the relay?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Which circuits are you suggesting to test? I have used a test light to confirm no voltage on the 8 pin connector at the transmission. Have also used test light to confirm voltage on 86 & 30 of the transmission relay.
 

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With test light, pin 1 on trans connector should have power , it is circuit T16, yl/or wire is TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT , if not check for short to other wires or open circuit .

Pinout for case connector info
CAVITY , CIRCUIT , wire gauge and color, FUNCTION
1 T16 18YL/OR TRANSMISSION CONTROL RELAY OUTPUT
2 F856 18YL/PK 5 VOLT SUPPLY
3 K900 20DB/DG (DIESEL) SENSOR GROUND
4 T38 18YL/BR GOVERNOR PRESSURE SENSOR SIGNAL
5 T118 18DG GOVERNOR PRESSURE SOLENOID CONTROL
6 T9 18DG/TN 3-4 SOLENOID CONTROL
7 T75 18YL/LB TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH SOLENOID CONTROL
8 T54 18DG/OR TRANSMISSION TEMPERATURE SENSOR SIGNAL
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Maybe im not being clear but I DO Not have power on Pin 1. I have check the wires all the way to the transmission control relay and they test good. The reason I do not have power on Pin 1 is because the relay is not being activated by the ECM via the ground signal from the ECM. I have also throughly checked the ECM signal wire, Yellow/Blue all the way from the ECM to the Transmission control relay and it all test good. I have 12 volts at Pins 86 and 30 at the relay. All I need is the ground from the ECM so i can have voltage at Pin 1.

The question and head scratcher is WHY isn't the ECM supplying the ground... What does the ECM need to see in order to send the ground signal? I have looked and looked online but I can't seem to find any information on this subject..

Is this ground signal supposed to be supplied when in gear and key on? Is there anything else that can influence this??
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Im referring to the ground side of the transmission control relay. This ground signal comes from pin 31 of C2 ECM connector. This is the relay that supplies the 12 volts to Pin 8 of the 8 pin connector for the GPS.

Yes Pin 5 is the control for the GPS, this would be a ground control as well from the ECM from pin 14 of C2 ECM connector.

Can anyone else chime in as to possible reasons im not receiving the ground from Pin 31 of c2 from the ECM? Ive been over the wiring so Ive ruled out that possibility.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Unfortunately it does the same with the engine running. Still no ground to the relay... Guessing everyone else is as stumped as we are with this haha. Dang it.
 

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So for some reason ECM is not giving signal,
Double check good power and grounds to ECM.
Could be glitch in software flash, No tuner right?
Have a way to reflash it?
Have you run EMIC(cluster) test to check communication bus for issues?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I’ve went over all the grounds I could find. Figured if it was a ground issue there would be other electrical issues as well but maybe not.
I do a have a tuner but I haven’t messed with it for awhile. I’ll try to reset it stock to see if there’s any change.

unfortunately I don’t have a way to reflash it.
What is the EMIC test your referring to?
 

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EMIC TEST
The instrument cluster actuator test will put the instrument cluster into its self-diagnostic mode. In this mode the
instrument cluster can perform a self-diagnostic test that will confirm that the instrument cluster circuitry, the gauges,
and the indicators are capable of operating as designed. During the actuator test the instrument cluster circuitry will
position each of the gauge needles at various calibration points, illuminate all of the segments in the Vacuum Fluorescent
Display (VFD) units, turn all of the indicators on and off again, display any Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC)
information, and display the number of ignition key cycles that have occurred since the DTC was detected. It is
suggested that a note pad and pencil be used to write down any fault information that is displayed during the test
for reference.

Successful completion of the actuator test will confirm that the instrument cluster is operational. However, there may
still be a problem with the PCI data bus, the Powertrain Control Module (PCM), the Engine Control Module (ECM),
the Front Control Module (FCM), the Transmission Control Module (TCM), the Transfer Case Control Module
(TCCM), the Airbag Control Module (ACM), the Controller Anti-lock Brake (CAB), or the hard wired inputs to one of
these electronic control modules. Use a diagnostic scan tool to diagnose these components. Refer to the appropriate
diagnostic information.
1. Begin the test with the ignition switch in the Off position.
2. Depress the odometer/trip odometer switch button.
3. While still holding the odometer/trip odometer switch button depressed, turn the ignition switch to the On position,
but do not start the engine.
4. Release the odometer/trip odometer switch button.
5. The instrument cluster will simultaneously begin to illuminate all of the operational segments in both VFD units
and perform a bulb check of each operational LED indicator. The VFD segments and LED indicators remain
illuminated as each gauge needle is swept to several calibration points and back. If a VFD segment or an LED
indicator fails to illuminate, or if a gauge needle fails to sweep through the calibration points and back during this
test, the instrument cluster must be replaced. Following these tests, the actuator test will proceed as described
in Step 6.
6. The text “C Code” is displayed in the odometer VFD for about three seconds. If there is no stored fault information,
the display will show two pairs of zeroes in the format “00” “00”, which indicate that the display of fault
information is done. If there is stored fault information, two sets of two-digit alpha and alpha-numeric fault codes
will appear in the odometer display for a three second interval. The first pair of digits represents a Diagnostic
Trouble Code (DTC), or fault code for the instrument cluster. The second pair of digits is a counter for the number
of ignition key cycles that have occurred since the displayed DTC was set. The instrument cluster will continue
to display additional sets of two pairs of digits at three second intervals until all of the stored codes have
been displayed, which is again signaled by a code of “00” “00”. Refer to the Instrument Cluster Failure Message
table for a description of each fault code that the instrument cluster displays.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Well the mystery has been solved. Turned out the Overdrive and Lockup solenoid assembly needed replaced. One of the solenoids showed completely open on on my DVOM.

From what I have gathered, if the ECM recognizes any electrical faults in the transmission it will kill the ground to transmission relay at the fuse box which feeds power to the #1 pin on the round 8 pin connector. I verified functionality of the rest of the transmission by manually activating the relay to supply the needed 12 volts to pin 1. With this It took the transmission out of limp mode and It was then starting out in first gear and would shift all the way into overdrive but the torque converter wouldn't lock up due to the faulty solenoid.

The replacement part I used was part # TCS51. With replacing this, it comes with all the electrical harness for the Governor pressure solenoid and the transducer as well. Not real difficult, I had to persuade the round 8 pin connector with a few taps of a hammer to come out due to the crud around the connector and the O rings being suck a little. It's due able if you have some common sense. Below is a picture of what it look like.
Thank you rghavana for your suggestions.
906872



Side note, for testing the solenoids, the new ones were reading right at 33.4 ohms of resistance across the two terminals.
 
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