Allison conversion
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Submissions now being taken for AUGUST CUMMINS OF THE MONTH!
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110 Posts
This is something I've been thinking about for awhile. Have arthritis and joint issues, especially left hip/clutch leg, so this might be a do for down the road. The gent told me they try to stay with the 1K series as the gear ratios are the same no matter what year of D-max it comes off of. The 2K series has different gear ratios depending on what the truck manufacture spec'd out for their application. They build the trans and converter to order depending on information given by customer and intended useage. For my application, 2X Q/C LB Dually, its roughly 5k$. I would need to rustle up the shifter stalk[ guy said my column is the same, just need arm], shift cable, column shrouds for shift arm, cooler, fluid, lengthen drive shaft, labor. If I need billet stuff or more hd tc etc, price goes up. Something to think about. I can recover a good portion of that back by selling my NV5600 and all that goes with it.
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24 Posts
Interesting for sure. Rebuilding the 48re is about 4k, and per ats the 4r-100 winds up being about 10k. I will have to look into what this would cost built to handle 600hp. Needing a new t case and adapter, all the column junk kindof sucks but if I swap before my 48re takes a dump I could recover some of the cost.
Anyone with much experience driving the allison, what are your impressions?
Anyone with much experience driving the allison, what are your impressions?
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504 Posts
To my understanding upgrading your 48re is just as good and less dollar wise than doing the Allison thing. The Allison I believe is a little over rated.
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504 Posts
I purchased a remand 48re upgraded from stock the builder told will take 600hp 3 yr 100000 mile warranty for 2,250 plus 515.00 install including fluid, here in Denver don't where you are?
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506 Posts
Do a search. From what I'm reading your looking at $5k+ for an Allison conversion instead of building a 48RE for the same or even substantially less money that has been proven to handle more abuse and power. I gotta ask why?
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110 Posts
Maybe in the near future there will be a standalone controller for the 68 or aisin that will negate doing an Allison. One of the things that adds to the cost for me is the standalone trans controller. No matter which avenue I take, thats one of the things needed as my truck is an NV5600.
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54 Posts
Why would you want to swap in a 68?
@ckessel
I'm starting to have left knee issues - this getting old ain't for sissies, but it sure beats the alternative! My knee starts to ache after about the fourth light in traffic, with the DD clutch.:S: And that's with shifting to neutral and letting the clutch out at lights.
Your truck must be a 2wd for the cost to come out around 5K - it's about 1K more in hard costs for a 4wd.
I've been studying and researching the swap over the past year, and have recently committed to a transmission - it's a 2200RDS from behind a ISB6.7 in a medium duty truck.
For those that say "why an Allison? a 48 is better", not all of us are into street machines, drag racing or sled pulling with modified engines. If you're happy with your four speed, great!
We typically bought our trucks to tow, and when towing in the mountains, the 47/48 doesn't cut it.
I've found that my early G56 has almost perfect gear splits across the board for towing, except for the fact that it doesn't have a seventh gear.
Running empty down the highway at 2000 rpm at 60 mph with a Cummins is ludicrous.
Turning 2500 rpm to keep up with traffic on the freeway is insane.
The 68RFE has very similar gear splits to the G56, with it's 5th gear pretty much matching the G56 6th. I've found one vendor with a standalone 68rfe controller calibration to put a 68 into a pre-'07.5 truck. But he doesn't support an exhaust brake. This makes it a non-starter for me. Plus then there are all the know 68RFE issues to be dealt with.
The Allison is not with out it's challenges:
- 5th gear has the wrong ratio in my opinion - it should be around .8:1, not .71:1
- due to it's massive internals, and clutch to clutch shifts, it will never be the fastest shifting tranny - that is a given. If you need fast shifts, spend your money on the 48.
- The electronics package to do the swap is expensive - count on 2K minimum, unless you are willing to cobble together a harness, TCM, TPS and figure out how to program it all. Then you might save $500.
- Commercially available engine/trans & trans/transfer adapters are not cheap.
But the Allison can be tuned for lock to lock shifts, both up and down. I understand that that is the typical medium duty calibration, so it likely won't be a smooooth as a Chebby! But look at all the medium duty trucks and RV's out there - Ford, GM, Isuzu, etc... The one thing in common is most/all run Allisons!
My GCVW with the 5th wheel on the back is 19,000 lbs.
The 2200RDS Allison is rated for 26,000 lbs GVW&GCVW in medium duty trucks, day in, day out with a life expected to be north of 500,000 miles. Try that with a 48 or 68RFE.
I try to fix things once and fix them right! YMMV!
When my ball joints went, I put in Carli's.. When my wheel bearings went, I put in hubs.. When the steering box was done, I put in the 6 bolt modified 5500 box..
Regarding the shifter - I don't particularly like column shifters, so I am researching console shifters. What I've found so far is the shifter detent comb on the 6 speed Allison has 7 detents, but some say the last one is not used. Shifter positions are - P,R,N,D,M,1 - but I suspect that that is the configuration for a GM 1000 with TapShift capability. The only console shifter I've found that is specifically for the Allison is the Art-Carr/Winters unit. Or Allison units on EBay
Hope that helps.
I'm starting to have left knee issues - this getting old ain't for sissies, but it sure beats the alternative! My knee starts to ache after about the fourth light in traffic, with the DD clutch.:S: And that's with shifting to neutral and letting the clutch out at lights.
Your truck must be a 2wd for the cost to come out around 5K - it's about 1K more in hard costs for a 4wd.
I've been studying and researching the swap over the past year, and have recently committed to a transmission - it's a 2200RDS from behind a ISB6.7 in a medium duty truck.
For those that say "why an Allison? a 48 is better", not all of us are into street machines, drag racing or sled pulling with modified engines. If you're happy with your four speed, great!
We typically bought our trucks to tow, and when towing in the mountains, the 47/48 doesn't cut it.
I've found that my early G56 has almost perfect gear splits across the board for towing, except for the fact that it doesn't have a seventh gear.
Running empty down the highway at 2000 rpm at 60 mph with a Cummins is ludicrous.
Turning 2500 rpm to keep up with traffic on the freeway is insane.
The 68RFE has very similar gear splits to the G56, with it's 5th gear pretty much matching the G56 6th. I've found one vendor with a standalone 68rfe controller calibration to put a 68 into a pre-'07.5 truck. But he doesn't support an exhaust brake. This makes it a non-starter for me. Plus then there are all the know 68RFE issues to be dealt with.
The Allison is not with out it's challenges:
- 5th gear has the wrong ratio in my opinion - it should be around .8:1, not .71:1
- due to it's massive internals, and clutch to clutch shifts, it will never be the fastest shifting tranny - that is a given. If you need fast shifts, spend your money on the 48.
- The electronics package to do the swap is expensive - count on 2K minimum, unless you are willing to cobble together a harness, TCM, TPS and figure out how to program it all. Then you might save $500.
- Commercially available engine/trans & trans/transfer adapters are not cheap.
But the Allison can be tuned for lock to lock shifts, both up and down. I understand that that is the typical medium duty calibration, so it likely won't be a smooooth as a Chebby! But look at all the medium duty trucks and RV's out there - Ford, GM, Isuzu, etc... The one thing in common is most/all run Allisons!
My GCVW with the 5th wheel on the back is 19,000 lbs.
The 2200RDS Allison is rated for 26,000 lbs GVW&GCVW in medium duty trucks, day in, day out with a life expected to be north of 500,000 miles. Try that with a 48 or 68RFE.
I try to fix things once and fix them right! YMMV!
When my ball joints went, I put in Carli's.. When my wheel bearings went, I put in hubs.. When the steering box was done, I put in the 6 bolt modified 5500 box..
Regarding the shifter - I don't particularly like column shifters, so I am researching console shifters. What I've found so far is the shifter detent comb on the 6 speed Allison has 7 detents, but some say the last one is not used. Shifter positions are - P,R,N,D,M,1 - but I suspect that that is the configuration for a GM 1000 with TapShift capability. The only console shifter I've found that is specifically for the Allison is the Art-Carr/Winters unit. Or Allison units on EBay
Hope that helps.
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259 Posts
Well, it seems since it is a Mopar product, I was thinking that it might integrate more easily than an Allison. Also, the gearing ratios in the 68RFE are very similar to those of the 6 speed Allison 1000.
(Using the HTML code was the only way I could figure out how to get the table to look right!)
HTML:
Allison Mopar
1000 68RFE
Reverse: 4.49 4.44
First: 3.10 3.23
Second: 1.81 1.83
Third: 1.41 1.41
Fourth: 1.00 1.00
Fifth: 0.71 0.81
Sixth: 0.61 0.62Like I said, the 68RFE has great ratios. However, the difference between .71 and .81 in fifth is significant.
An Allison doing 2000 rpm in 4th, will drop to 1420 rpm when it shifts to fifth. If it upshifts from 2000 rpm in 5th, it will only drop to 1718rpm in 6th.
A 68RFE shifting at the same 2000 rpm in 4th will drop to 1620 rpm in fifth.
if it shifts from 2000rpm in 5th it will be at 1530 rpm in 6th.
Of course, bolting in a 68RFE is going to significantly less complicated, with no adapters required. Making it work correctly and live in a early truck is the challenge.
An Allison doing 2000 rpm in 4th, will drop to 1420 rpm when it shifts to fifth. If it upshifts from 2000 rpm in 5th, it will only drop to 1718rpm in 6th.
A 68RFE shifting at the same 2000 rpm in 4th will drop to 1620 rpm in fifth.
if it shifts from 2000rpm in 5th it will be at 1530 rpm in 6th.
Of course, bolting in a 68RFE is going to significantly less complicated, with no adapters required. Making it work correctly and live in a early truck is the challenge.
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110 Posts
When I was talking to the gent at the show, I saw that the main costs were the custom flex plate, block adaptor[ both a grand plus each] and then the controller. The actual trans and converter were fairly cheap. Makes me wish I could spend some time at a truck dealer combing through info to figure out whats required minus the controller. When I worked at Dodge dealers, I would spend my down time figuring out stuff like this. What cool widget off this vehicle will fit onto my ride. I'd take in dial calipers, tape measures and calibrated eyeball to figure stuff out. Like when I saw that a v-10 cat converter could be used on my 94 5.9 gas truck with mp headers. It gave you a 2 1/4 in and 3" out as opposed to 1 3/4x 2 1/2". Plus it was like half the cost. Doing research like this is fun. Breaks up the monotony of looking up minivan junk. I'd bet that you would not have to get the high dollar flex plate and block adaptor if a joe spent some time pouring over the info.
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259 Posts
Even if you needed the flex plate and block adapter, they could likely be machined by someone with the right equipment for significantly less. You're paying in part for the R&D and customer service. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it provides an incentive (as you personally found out) for that kind of effort.
Check out Howards-allison-conversions for a different way of accomplishing the adapters.
He uses the stock Dodge engine adapter, a stock SAE3 Allison bellhousing, and a custom spacing ring.. The big advantage of his approach is that the starter stays where it belongs, away from the exhaust.
He uses the stock Dodge engine adapter, a stock SAE3 Allison bellhousing, and a custom spacing ring.. The big advantage of his approach is that the starter stays where it belongs, away from the exhaust.
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4,144 Posts
I too have been thinking of an auto swap in my 2wd NV5600 swap for the distant future.
Someone posted this link in another thread. This is 1st I have ever heard of a 68RFE swapped into an older Dodge Cummins using a standalone PCS controller.
Plus there is some excellent info on a Allison swap.
Transmission Tuner, Allison and 68RFE Swaps
Someone posted this link in another thread. This is 1st I have ever heard of a 68RFE swapped into an older Dodge Cummins using a standalone PCS controller.
Plus there is some excellent info on a Allison swap.
Transmission Tuner, Allison and 68RFE Swaps
I've had an email conversation with him - the 68RFE is a non-starter for me due to the fact that he doesn't support an exhaust brake, and it's generally fragile nature.
For the Allison, Trans-Tuner appears to do a modified GM calibration, and only locks in the top gears initially. Lower gear locks are additional programming/cost, and he doesn't include the TPS in his package - you need to source one.
Cummins-Allison-Conversions (CAC) does a medium duty calibration in the TCM, which does lock to lock shifts both up and down through the gears. That calibration only uses the converter for launch (and the 1-2 shift?). They tie into the Dodge tps and don't require a separate device. They are working on tap-shift, and they set up the TCM for your vehicle/engine mods.
The complete package from either is about the same $ once the TPS is considered, with the tune-ability advantage going to Trans-Tuner.. and the disadvantage of Trans-Tuner's package is the need for that tuning..
Howard's has a TCM and wiring harness for 1/2 the money - but he states only a 5 speed calibration. No mention on the web-site of how the TPS is accomplished.
And then there is The-complete-Allison-1000-2000-2400-info-and-swap-guide-thread from 4btswaps, if you want to take on the challenge yourself.
Be prepared to read all 693 posts a few times.
I want a plug and play solution on the electronic side, and not have to putz around with tuning for a few months, so will most likely go with CAC.
Hope that helps!
For the Allison, Trans-Tuner appears to do a modified GM calibration, and only locks in the top gears initially. Lower gear locks are additional programming/cost, and he doesn't include the TPS in his package - you need to source one.
Cummins-Allison-Conversions (CAC) does a medium duty calibration in the TCM, which does lock to lock shifts both up and down through the gears. That calibration only uses the converter for launch (and the 1-2 shift?). They tie into the Dodge tps and don't require a separate device. They are working on tap-shift, and they set up the TCM for your vehicle/engine mods.
The complete package from either is about the same $ once the TPS is considered, with the tune-ability advantage going to Trans-Tuner.. and the disadvantage of Trans-Tuner's package is the need for that tuning..
Howard's has a TCM and wiring harness for 1/2 the money - but he states only a 5 speed calibration. No mention on the web-site of how the TPS is accomplished.
And then there is The-complete-Allison-1000-2000-2400-info-and-swap-guide-thread from 4btswaps, if you want to take on the challenge yourself.
Be prepared to read all 693 posts a few times.
I want a plug and play solution on the electronic side, and not have to putz around with tuning for a few months, so will most likely go with CAC.
Hope that helps!
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