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I don't really care what the morale is like at a certain plant. What I do care about is the quality of the product it produces.
A well put together vehicle by pissed Mexicans beats a sloppy one assembled by overpaid and happy UAW workers every time. In my mind.
You should be able to support quality and American jobs simultaneously. I haven't seen any evidence that proves your theory.
 

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You should be able to support quality and American jobs simultaneously. I haven't seen any evidence that proves your theory.
Yes indeed, you should be. But then there's real life.

If you want to see evidence of build quality differences, just come look at the two 3500s and compare them to the 1500.
Or even something as simple as the difference in paint quality between Jeeps and Dodges. The latter being built in Canada.
Heck, the Saltillo paint on the lowly Rams is far nicer than what Jeep manages.

So much for my "theory" being a theory.
 

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Yes indeed, you should be. But then there's real life.

If you want to see evidence of build quality differences, just come look at the two 3500s and compare them to the 1500.
Or even something as simple as the difference in paint quality between Jeeps and Dodges. The latter being built in Canada.
Heck, the Saltillo paint on the lowly Rams is far nicer than what Jeep manages.

So much for my "theory" being a theory.
That's what we call anecdotal evidence. It's not necessarily true or reliable since it's based on personal experiences rather than facts or research.

The Jeeps and Ram 1500 that we've owned has had excellent paint quality and build quality, as did the Ram 2500 Cummins. I haven't experienced any quality control issues with my vehicles.
 

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That's what we call anecdotal evidence. It's not necessarily true or reliable since it's based on personal experiences rather than facts or research.
But of course! Since it's first hand, seen with my own eyes (and you invited to see it for yourself) it can't compare with your first, second hand, or YouTube info. I should have known.

Would it be acceptable evidence if I sent the vehicles to a lab where the discrepancies can be researched and verified?

Or is it just that your personal experiences with far fewer vehicles is factual whereas my observations of a larger sample group is not reliable because I'm not as knowledgeable and important as you are?
 

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FACT - I have had more issues with FCA products at work than any other manufacturer.... & we've only had 3 in the fleet.
 

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FACT - I have had more issues with FCA products at work than any other manufacturer.... & we've only had 3 in the fleet.
Nope, not fact. It's anecdotal, since it was experienced by you, not our almighty Dieselenthusiast.
 

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That's what we call anecdotal evidence. It's not necessarily true or reliable since it's based on personal experiences rather than facts or research.

The Jeeps and Ram 1500 that we've owned has had excellent paint quality and build quality, as did the Ram 2500 Cummins. I haven't experienced any quality control issues with my vehicles.
So jimmy's argument is invalid and anecdotal because it's based off his personal experiences but your argument is more valid and not anecdotal because it's based off of your own personal experiences? Because that's how that statement reads.
 

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Rear Admiral Rickard Onmi
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FACT - I have had more issues with FCA products at work than any other manufacturer.... & we've only had 3 in the fleet.
FACT I've had more issues with Ford products then any other manufacture at work.. Given, they were all with a 6 uh oh. I swear that truck left me stranded more then anything else i've ever driven, including my $500 beater S10 that i bought for a $500 beater challenge where we all got one, and went to the off road park and abused them until they broke. Mine drove home, then i found 3/4 of a CV gear in my driveway the next morning. But it did drive home after being HEAVILY abused. So does that mean that the best heavy duty vehicle to withstand abuse is an 80s S10?
 

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Well, there's a bit more to it. Notice that it read "...what we call anecdotal...
When incredibly well connected with all kinds of people that us mortals are not (or by watching more YouTube) ones observations are obviously far more valid.
 

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Rear Admiral Rickard Onmi
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Last i checked my title is "Rear Admiral Richard Omni" which means i outrank all of you, therefore my opinion is the most valid. As such, i declare that the ideal tow vehicle is a 1965 Pontiac Bonneville, 2 door convertible. preferably in red.

1965 Pontiac Bonneville | Fast Lane Classic Cars
 

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So does that mean that the best heavy duty vehicle to withstand abuse is an 80s S10?
No, what it means is that unless you tow with an Ecodiesel, play around on a toy tractor, and watch lots of YouTube, your opinions, experiences, and thoughts aren't worth squat.

You may get some credence if you have 22-ton jack stands, though.
 

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Fords were my worst brand 0-2 (but popularity would say I was wrong)
Rams are 2-1
GM is 2-0

I bet at this rate I’ll have a good sample size to really tell you what’s what

Give me time gents, relax I’ll get to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Recently

Fords were my worst brand 0-2 (but popularity would say I was wrong)
Rams are 2-1
GM is 2-0

I bet at this rate I’ll have a good sample size to really tell you what’s what

Give me time gents, relax I’ll get to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Working on the BIG 3 through the years the difference in repairs between the FMC and GM are about the same but when it comes to FCA I about lose my mind. I believe some of their engineers are living on a whole different world. Wheel/hub assemblies for instance. Why would you make the tolerances so tight that even shops with the "right" tools have to cut it out of the spindle? Wiring in them is a complete joke to work on. The push button start on the earlier models id a PITA & I could keep going. FMC and GM have their quirks about some things as well but FCA takes the trophy on this rant.
 

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But of course! Since it's first hand, seen with my own eyes (and you invited to see it for yourself) it can't compare with your first, second hand, or YouTube info. I should have known.

Would it be acceptable evidence if I sent the vehicles to a lab where the discrepancies can be researched and verified?

Or is it just that your personal experiences with far fewer vehicles is factual whereas my observations of a larger sample group is not reliable because I'm not as knowledgeable and important as you are?
You're smart enough to know what research is. And what you're describing is not research. Your anecdotal experiences and my anecdotal experiences are not similar. It's fine to have an opinion, but to say that quality control is worse in an unionized American plant compared to a plant in Mexico isn't proven.

Also, there's only one constant in a plant, and that is change. There are too many factors (changes) that occur on any given day to accurately measure quality control. You mentioned paint quality. Paint quality is mostly determined by the machines, not by people.
 

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FACT - I have had more issues with FCA products at work than any other manufacturer.... & we've only had 3 in the fleet.
And that's the quality control issues that my friend was talking about. He said that quailty control is one of the biggest problems that FIAT promised to address in the next few years.
 

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Nope, not fact. It's anecdotal, since it was experienced by you, not our almighty Dieselenthusiast.
FCA already knows they have quality control issues. There's no argument about individual experiences. My argument is that FCA hasn't come to any conclusion that unionized plants are the problem for quality control. The Ram HD that is made in Mexico has plenty of quality control issues, just ask Cody about his vibration problems on his 4th gen that he calls the 'shake'. It was so bad that he traded it after only owning it a short while. Then he buys a new 2019 and guess what? Now he has another issue. These are quality control issues coming straight form the Saltillo, Mexico plant.
 

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You're smart enough to know what research is. And what you're describing is not research. Your anecdotal experiences and my anecdotal experiences are not similar. It's fine to have an opinion, but to say that quality control is worse in an unionized American plant compared to a plant in Mexico isn't proven.

Paint quality is mostly determined by the machines, not by people.
I have not claimed that my experiences with nine Rams and six other FCA vehicles over the past 10 years was research. It may be an unvalidated opinion, but once again, come on over and see for yourself.

How many sets of eyes does it require to take it past the anecdotal stage? I could take photos of several of the discrepancies and post them here. If so, would it take 50, 1,000, or 150,000 views to make them real?
Or is some sort of research required to prove what should be obvious to anyone who sees the vehicles?

And I couldn't care less if the paint was applied by Michelangelo or a robot. To me, what counts is the resulting quality.
If going by that simple and somewhat logical standard, the US paint loses big time to Canada and Mexico.
 

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And that's the quality control issues that my friend was talking about. He said that quailty control is one of the biggest problems that FIAT promised to address in the next few years.
I thinks it's more of an engineering problem than QC
 

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So jimmy's argument is invalid and anecdotal because it's based off his personal experiences but your argument is more valid and not anecdotal because it's based off of your own personal experiences? Because that's how that statement reads.
You just proved my point. His anecdotal experiences and my anecdotal experiences don't make fact. The argument isn't about anecdotal experiences, the argument is that there's no research to conclude that unionized plants have more quality control issues than a plant in Mexico.

I'm happy that Ram is bringing the Ram HD to the United States. And according to my friend who works for FCA, FIAT has promised to improve quality control. Whether that happens or not, is a different story. Ram's goal is to become the #1 best selling truck in America, and to help reach that goal, they felt they needed to build the truck in America.
 

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There's no argument about individual experiences.

My argument is that FCA hasn't come to any conclusion that unionized plants are the problem for quality control.

The Ram HD that is made in Mexico has plenty of quality control issues...
You sure argued my individual experiences.

Not my fault that FCA is trying to kiss up to the UAW. Besides, they'll see and hear what they want in that respect.
Gotta defend the plan to move the production to the USA somehow.

I never claimed that my made in Mexico Rams were flawless, but their issues have been with bad components, not crappy workmanship like with the US made vehicles..
 
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