Has anyone done this? I just replaced my steering box & I still hate the way the truck steers. Seems like it just takes too much steering input to keep it going straight. I know the hydraulic fittings are a different size; is the mounting bolt pattern the same? How about the steering shaft & pitman arm? I know I could always go with the Borgeson box, but want to research a 3rd gen swap to see if it's cheaper first. So....... any info?
3rd gen steering box on a 2nd gen
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I know,..what's up with that huh? Sometimes I get the no responses due to the mass of easily findable info on the site or Google....or it's kinda cold shouldered because somebody(s) thinks it's already been addressed enough......... BUT I have the same question on a topic relative to the historically crappy steering in these boats and NOBODY's gonna jump on it?.......kinda wierd huh?.....
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muchsnow, I'm going to try to write this in a way that isn't offensive, because I really don't mean it to be. Was your last post meant to be sarcastic or literal? Here's the reason I ask.
I have been around these cummins pickup for close to 10 years now, using them on the ranch and as daily drivers. Most times these trucks were pulling double duty. In those 10 years, and close to 12-15 different Dodge Cummins, all but one were 2nd Gens. That one being a '03 3rd Gen that I recently sold. Not one of these pickups had issues with their steering. Not saying that the steering isn't "historically crappy", simply using that as a reference point for my purpose for writing this. Had I not seen someone posting this question, I would have never considered this to be an issue to address or something to consider for a future mod. Granted, the information might be beat to death, I have no idea. More often than not, my method of using this site is as a search engine, not as a daily update on interesting reads. But for me, and I'm sure many others, having questions reasked is a good way to bring attention to issues we might otherwise have never known existed until it was too late.
Also, and speaking as a person that utilizes the site's search engine, there are very few things I find more frustrating than to search for something I need to know, only to find topic after topic that only have responses stating "search", "ever heard of google", "this has been beat to death", etc. Just answer and move on, or provide a link so others can find the info. The purpose of these forums is to share knowledge on a shared interest, in this case the Dodge Cummins. So what's so hard about sharing knowledge? What bewilders me is why the people that mock and make smart comments continue to read the same type of topics over and over anyway. If you feel the topic is overused, avoid it. It’s really very simple.
Now muchsnow, if you were being genuine, I apologize for any inferences I might have made toward you. I had trouble determining if you were being sympathetic to the OP or if you felt now was a good time to flex you e-muscles and make someone else feel e-small. So if I was out of line toward you, I really am sorry.
OP: I also am interested in this swap, because it might mean a cheaper, easier way to fix a problem area. I have never heard of the idea and would like to know more about it as well, if only for future reference. If you learn something on the topic, please come back and post your findings here. I really would like to add the info to my database for later.
I have been around these cummins pickup for close to 10 years now, using them on the ranch and as daily drivers. Most times these trucks were pulling double duty. In those 10 years, and close to 12-15 different Dodge Cummins, all but one were 2nd Gens. That one being a '03 3rd Gen that I recently sold. Not one of these pickups had issues with their steering. Not saying that the steering isn't "historically crappy", simply using that as a reference point for my purpose for writing this. Had I not seen someone posting this question, I would have never considered this to be an issue to address or something to consider for a future mod. Granted, the information might be beat to death, I have no idea. More often than not, my method of using this site is as a search engine, not as a daily update on interesting reads. But for me, and I'm sure many others, having questions reasked is a good way to bring attention to issues we might otherwise have never known existed until it was too late.
Also, and speaking as a person that utilizes the site's search engine, there are very few things I find more frustrating than to search for something I need to know, only to find topic after topic that only have responses stating "search", "ever heard of google", "this has been beat to death", etc. Just answer and move on, or provide a link so others can find the info. The purpose of these forums is to share knowledge on a shared interest, in this case the Dodge Cummins. So what's so hard about sharing knowledge? What bewilders me is why the people that mock and make smart comments continue to read the same type of topics over and over anyway. If you feel the topic is overused, avoid it. It’s really very simple.
Now muchsnow, if you were being genuine, I apologize for any inferences I might have made toward you. I had trouble determining if you were being sympathetic to the OP or if you felt now was a good time to flex you e-muscles and make someone else feel e-small. So if I was out of line toward you, I really am sorry.
OP: I also am interested in this swap, because it might mean a cheaper, easier way to fix a problem area. I have never heard of the idea and would like to know more about it as well, if only for future reference. If you learn something on the topic, please come back and post your findings here. I really would like to add the info to my database for later.
To the OP, my rig has over 180,000 miles and drives as well as it would have new. I still have the original ball joints and wheel hubs but have a Lukes Link on the track bar, a steering stabilizer and the '98-'99 T steering and as much positive caster in the front as I could get. What finally made it drive like I wanted was putting on very stiff sidewall tires, a poly bushing on the bolt end of the track bar and adjusting the steering box according the FSM. Both adjustments. Now it drives nearly as well as any rig I have owned.
The steering stabilizer made no real noticeable difference. The track bar repair did but the T steering did not help much. I wanted that style steering because it seems a much smarter/better style to me. The positive caster did the most until I finally did the last 3 things. The steering box needed to be adjusted tighter than I would have expected, and along with the track bar and poly bushing end and with more positive caster and stiff sidewall tires seems to have been the big issues.
I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with the design, just worn or maladjusted parts that cause them to drive poorly. I used to have a Jeep Comanche and it has the same style of steering and drove very well.
This has just been my experience and hope this helps.
The steering stabilizer made no real noticeable difference. The track bar repair did but the T steering did not help much. I wanted that style steering because it seems a much smarter/better style to me. The positive caster did the most until I finally did the last 3 things. The steering box needed to be adjusted tighter than I would have expected, and along with the track bar and poly bushing end and with more positive caster and stiff sidewall tires seems to have been the big issues.
I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with the design, just worn or maladjusted parts that cause them to drive poorly. I used to have a Jeep Comanche and it has the same style of steering and drove very well.
This has just been my experience and hope this helps.
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I have never heard of this or attempted it myself. Anything could be done. I would sugggest getting a 3rd gen box out of a truck at the truck yard and trying to fab it up. I have not tried searching the topic either.
I frequent this site daily and sometimes it does get frustrating when people start a new thread for issues that are stickied or already have like 10 threads open at the same time. For instance, " which is better x programmer or y programmer" This comes up weekly it seems and its the same darn discussion every single time.
I frequent this site daily and sometimes it does get frustrating when people start a new thread for issues that are stickied or already have like 10 threads open at the same time. For instance, " which is better x programmer or y programmer" This comes up weekly it seems and its the same darn discussion every single time.
3rd generation steering in a 2nd generation truck...
But hey,...
I was actually sympathetic because I had the same question as provided in an earlier post/same thread............. with uh no response....(but I'm a little scarcastic too..)
However, (comma) these trucks DO have a oem steering design flaw/shortfall appearing when they introduced the 4WD Cummins on top of the inverted Y steering linkage, also combined with a lighter duty then required Saginaw steering box, and a trackbar/panhard bar setup that had a fairly weak (perhaps depending on date/location of manufacture) ball attachment set-up that really shouldn't have made it under a Cummins motor in a four wheel drive chassis.
The Y config (vice the good ole "T" type used for years on everything) allows continous variation in vehicle toe-in, along with trackbar and draglink non-parallel geometry changes during suspension articulation on any application that worked that articulation throughout it's limits. This is/was unusually hard on trackbars and steering box sector shafts (aka steering box). A lot of folks with their nice four wheel drive trucks were always trying to keep their trucks out of the ditch or worse yet were the unlucky few that had to deal with the castor wobble that sometimes reared when the right combination of worn and design provided them with a nice white knuckle experience....
And,...
The Dana 60's in the second gens (especially 2000-2002) seem to also utilize a lackluster/weak balljoint setup at the knuckles that has very limited aftermarket support (especially 2000-2002), and has a real wide mtbf irregardless of application...
Plus, the unitized bearing setup. Some last forever (stock applications), others.....when they fail, you're usually not getting very far till it's flatbedded and the bearing and collateral damage is repaired...
But hey,
We're definately on the same page here because,...
I also am interested in this swap, because it might mean a cheaper, easier way to fix a problem area. I have never heard of the idea and would like to know more about it as well, if only for future reference. If you learn something on the topic, please come back and post your findings here. I really would like to add the info to my database for later....
Have a good one..
Wow, pretty deep there,
But hey,...
I was actually sympathetic because I had the same question as provided in an earlier post/same thread............. with uh no response....(but I'm a little scarcastic too..)
However, (comma) these trucks DO have a oem steering design flaw/shortfall appearing when they introduced the 4WD Cummins on top of the inverted Y steering linkage, also combined with a lighter duty then required Saginaw steering box, and a trackbar/panhard bar setup that had a fairly weak (perhaps depending on date/location of manufacture) ball attachment set-up that really shouldn't have made it under a Cummins motor in a four wheel drive chassis.
The Y config (vice the good ole "T" type used for years on everything) allows continous variation in vehicle toe-in, along with trackbar and draglink non-parallel geometry changes during suspension articulation on any application that worked that articulation throughout it's limits. This is/was unusually hard on trackbars and steering box sector shafts (aka steering box). A lot of folks with their nice four wheel drive trucks were always trying to keep their trucks out of the ditch or worse yet were the unlucky few that had to deal with the castor wobble that sometimes reared when the right combination of worn and design provided them with a nice white knuckle experience....
And,...
The Dana 60's in the second gens (especially 2000-2002) seem to also utilize a lackluster/weak balljoint setup at the knuckles that has very limited aftermarket support (especially 2000-2002), and has a real wide mtbf irregardless of application...
Plus, the unitized bearing setup. Some last forever (stock applications), others.....when they fail, you're usually not getting very far till it's flatbedded and the bearing and collateral damage is repaired...
But hey,
We're definately on the same page here because,...
I also am interested in this swap, because it might mean a cheaper, easier way to fix a problem area. I have never heard of the idea and would like to know more about it as well, if only for future reference. If you learn something on the topic, please come back and post your findings here. I really would like to add the info to my database for later....
Have a good one..
OP, what replacement box did you install. A1-Cardone remans are horrible as are (at least were but I swore I'd never install another AGR because of the sudden failure) AGR.
So far, I've had the best fortune with RedHead. Others have their preference but none (few??) have had success with Cardone. but, Cardone is cheap and plentiful.
So far, I've had the best fortune with RedHead. Others have their preference but none (few??) have had success with Cardone. but, Cardone is cheap and plentiful.
I don't know if he is still making the changeover kit or not, but Welcome to Intelligent Engineering, Inc - Manufacturer of the strongest high performance diesel parts in the world! at one time had a changeover kit from 2nd gen to 3rd gen steering boxes.
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8,091 Posts
Just installead a borgesen in my truck...all i had to do was bolt it in and its a completlly different truck...
why do you need a 3rd gen box? the only reason i can think of wanting to make a 3rd gen box fit is so you can use a 4th gen box which is, FINIALLY!!!, a heavy duty box
why do you need a 3rd gen box? the only reason i can think of wanting to make a 3rd gen box fit is so you can use a 4th gen box which is, FINIALLY!!!, a heavy duty box
A lot of guys apparently think this a new Dodge only problem. Fords I know have it and it has been around for years and I personally had DW on the tag axle on a 4 axle Peterbilt. Years ago Dad had a '41 Dodge WC that had a DW (we called it a shimmy) anytime it hit a RR crossing or rough road at 30 or above. He traded it off on a new tractor and didn't mention the issue to the guy that drove it to the dealer but heard about it later. :shock: :shock: :hehe: :hehe:
Check the following link if you don't believe me about it being around forever. :confused013: :doh: :banghead:
Death Wobble
Check the following link if you don't believe me about it being around forever. :confused013: :doh: :banghead:
Death Wobble
Third generation steering...
That was the main reason for my question since I've managed to acquire a fourth gen box...and know it bolts up to a third gen......
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i replaced my steering box a little while ago and did the steering brace as well and its huge improvement.....just an idea to look at
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Did the 4th gen end up bolting up??
Fourth generation Delphi steering box on a second generation.
It does if you use the forged adapter that some guy in UT sells that I tested to be "harder" than the frame material and the cast housing of the steering box. You would also require a pitman arm that takes the draglink end from the bottom..... I was going to try it but was just shy of being able to get the drag link short enough to center the steering box/steering wheel. It would probably all sort out in the end but I decided to leave it as an alternative in the future after I had the truck alligned good and finished... and wore out the existing box (chevrolet appl, PSC box, hanging in there...)
All you need is for whatever components you have to be in good shape. That includes steering box and linkage.
Some boxes have less chance of being good. I had horrible xexperience with Card one and AGR. Get ball joints and track bar of your choice, a good box and 2010 steering linkage (because it's complete and cheap). Add a brace to protect the new box. Get an alignment with 3* of caster and you're done.
Some boxes have less chance of being good. I had horrible xexperience with Card one and AGR. Get ball joints and track bar of your choice, a good box and 2010 steering linkage (because it's complete and cheap). Add a brace to protect the new box. Get an alignment with 3* of caster and you're done.
This is not relevant to the subject of a fourth gen box in a second gen truck..... and YES AGR boxes are Craaaaap...
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