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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
Big trucks & Trains are looking for 11-M/S piston speed. CTD somewhere between that and a cars typical 14-M/S.

As cpitock noted yesterday, (paraphrased) the trans gears ain’t dialed in for it. (28-MPG thread).

The GP BSFC map firunderstanding.
View attachment 953779


The Dyno Room version (2003)
View attachment 953780


Wayne Gerdes running a 2016

View attachment 953781

The consistency is unforgettable.

24.4-MPG at 65 ain’t a fluke.

.
Big trucks & Trains are looking for 11-M/S piston speed. CTD somewhere between that and a cars typical 14-M/S.
This gas burner race engine we are building has a max piston speed of 45 M/S and average piston speed 28.8 M/S and making 33% more power than a 14 M/S. Piston speed IS important to engine life and one variable on efficiency.
 
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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
953779[/ATTACH]


The Dyno Room version (2003)
View attachment 953780


Wayne Gerdes running a 2016

View attachment 953781

The consistency is unforgettable.

24.4-MPG at 65 ain’t a fluke.

.
ALL the above is GOLD. Or $$ is ones pocket. Thanks for posting this!

I'm going to have a conversation with my tuner about improving his MPG tune and/or 12V. I know we left MPG on the table with both of these tunes. Rob has 2 12v tunes, standard power and Sporty Power. I have the Sporty Power 12V tune.
 
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ALL the above is GOLD. Or $$ is ones pocket. Thanks for posting this!

I'm going to have a conversation with my tuner about improving his MPG tune and/or 12V. I know we left MPG on the table with both of these tunes. Rob has 2 12v tunes, standard power and Sporty Power. I have the Sporty Power 12V tune.
Great!

Because one trip does not an average make.

My 24 is predicated on 47,000-miles of records over about two years.

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
We got our oil sample results back from Blackstone today. I confess, this is my second oil sample test, ever. I had an old sample container on the shelf, those the sample date is wrong on the test.

I like there is next to no fuel or antifreeze in the oil. An indication the injectors and head gasket are okay.

This sample was after 10K of Stiction Eliminator oil treatment. Fuel gets 8 and 8 oz 2SO and AFT per 30 gallons.

What do ya think??
Font Parallel Rectangle Number Pattern
 
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We got our oil sample results back from Blackstone today. I confess, this is my second oil sample test, ever. I had an old sample container on the shelf, those the sample date is wrong on the test.

I like there is next to no fuel or antifreeze in the oil. An indication the injectors and head gasket are okay.

This sample was after 10K of Stiction Eliminator oil treatment. Fuel gets 8 and 8 oz 2SO and AFT per 30 gallons.

What do ya think?? View attachment 953945
Asking ordinary guys is asking for, “well-intentioned, but . . . .”

I started using Terry Dyson (Dyson Analysis) a little over 20-years ago. As a certified tribologist he can read deeper into a UOA than what the lab rats have ability.

Trend Over Time (ToT) is what you want, IMO.

When I got Ol’ Lightnin’ back in ‘07 I changed to T6 5W-40 Rotella for two reasons:

1). The engine turned over more easily than with a premium 15W-40 even in summer in hot-as-hell Texas; and,

2). Terry told me the numbers were very good with an HPCR Cummins on that brew.

— Earlier vehicles we’d owned (when I was married) I’d worked with him to get wear numbers to nil.

I was a very early member at BITOG (Bob is the Oil Guy) and on earlier boards. You’ll find a UOA sub forum they call HD Diesel (to separate it from passenger car diesels) where you can compare.

— Just don’t spend much time with those who post. Oil chemistry is arcane. There are some Dudley Do-Rights aggravating as hell.

— Read all Doug Hillary posts you wish to be adequately educated in understanding truck fleet trends (as it applies to us doing more than commuting).

Past no obvious problems most of us can spot on a UOA, I’d recommend Terry or someone like him. He’s on retainer with several racing teams.

— Oil analysis may not save an engine . . . its in creating favorable conditions as an established boundary-set, THEN are discrepancies obvious to the tribologist.

Truck Spec
Climate
Terrain
Operator (meaning job description & motivation)

Thus — as with Cummins & Kenworth White Papers on FE — the fuel burn priority list are the factors he needs to focus for your situation.

— You’ll find that his work (or anyone else’s) needs Average MPG & Average MPH plus lifetime gallons consumed to make for best advice (the truck fleet model). Few non-commercial operators do, so chart up your very best guesses. And start keeping records.

A CTD Dodge is a 350k miles & 20k gallon engine (B50) before replacement. 50% won’t make it to where those two points meet on a graph. Needs averages of 35-MPH & 17.5-MPG to meet that goal as an ideal.

— I see it as do some fleets: Renew whole truck at 200k (injectors are “the major tune-up”) and proceed to 400k. Most of us will age out on reliability we keep them long enough versus fleet spec.

Last I used him his packaged services were quite reasonable. I hope he hasn’t retired.

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Asking ordinary guys is asking for, “well-intentioned, but . . . .”

I started using Terry Dyson (Dyson Analysis) a little over 20-years ago. As a certified tribologist he can read deeper into a UOA than what the lab rats have ability.

Trend Over Time (ToT) is what you want, IMO.

When I got Ol’ Lightnin’ back in ‘07 I changed to T6 5W-40 Rotella for two reasons:

1). The engine turned over more easily than with a premium 15W-40 even in summer in hot-as-hell Texas; and,

2). Terry told me the numbers were very good with an HPCR Cummins on that brew.

— Earlier vehicles we’d owned (when I was married) I’d worked with him to get wear numbers to nil.

I was a very early member at BITOG (Bob is the Oil Guy) and on earlier boards. You’ll find a UOA sub forum they call HD Diesel (to separate it from passenger car diesels) where you can compare.

— Just don’t spend much time with those who post. Oil chemistry is arcane. There are some Dudley Do-Rights aggravating as hell.

— Read all Doug Hillary posts you wish to be adequately educated in understanding truck fleet trends (as it applies to us doing more than commuting).

Past no obvious problems most of us can spot on a UOA, I’d recommend Terry or someone like him. He’s on retainer with several racing teams.

— Oil analysis may not save an engine . . . its in creating favorable conditions as an established boundary-set, THEN are discrepancies obvious to the tribologist.

Truck Spec
Climate
Terrain
Operator (meaning job description & motivation)

Thus — as with Cummins & Kenworth White Papers on FE — the fuel burn priority list are the factors he needs to focus for your situation.

— You’ll find that his work (or anyone else’s) needs Average MPG & Average MPH plus lifetime gallons consumed to make for best advice (the truck fleet model). Few non-commercial operators do, so chart up your very best guesses. And start keeping records.

A CTD Dodge is a 350k miles & 20k gallon engine (B50) before replacement. 50% won’t make it to where those two points meet on a graph. Needs averages of 35-MPH & 17.5-MPG to meet that goal as an ideal.

— I see it as do some fleets: Renew whole truck at 200k (injectors are “the major tune-up”) and proceed to 400k. Most of us will age out on reliability we keep them long enough versus fleet spec.

Last I used him his packaged services were quite reasonable. I hope he hasn’t retired.

.
Thanks for the input. I didn't stress on the high iron content in my last oil analysis at 155,000 miles.

I was mostly curious what was in the oil after running 10K with Stiction Elimination oil treatment. An added bonus, no fuel or antifreeze in the oil. The higher than normal viscosity may have been SE cleaning up the engine.

When my fuel injectors give some indicators they are going out, I'll grab another oil sample for analysis or at 350K, which ever comes first. :ROFLMAO:

I'll be disappointed if my CTD only goes 350K. My average MPH is 30.9. No telling my average MPG. The first owner DD drove it around Houston and I use the truck to run errands as well as towing and solo trips.

I agree, most folks run these trucks until the quit, then work on them. I have no evidence and firmly believe, not getting ahead of items like batteries, battery cables and grounds leads to starter and alternator problems. That might lead to killing the ECU. Running sensors until they throw a code or quit falls into the same category. It's a snow ball effect.

Side note: Based on your nudge, I have engine and trans mounts on order. I'll post up the results. I hope that's about all the renewal it needs for another 20K.
 
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I had a 12V EFI Live tune before Rob's MM2 tunes. The EFI Live 12v tune always got better fuel economy than the other tunes, always. If Firepunks 12v tune won't get better mileage, at todays fuel costs, get another tuner. I'm very interested in how long my OE injectors last. IF 66% fewer injector pulses extend the life.

Sensors/relief valves, good grounds and battery cables are all part of the overall health of your truck and results in better starts and better economy.

Truck stability we talked about plays a roll as well. Cheapest mod that helps are the poly leaf spring bushings.

GL
Got a list of sensors and relief valves you replaced?
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 · (Edited)
Got a list of sensors and relief valves you replaced?
I don't have a list per say, I found all of these at Geno's Garage. I bought some from Geno's and others around the internet. If I were to do it again, I would buy what I can from NGK.com and the rest from Geno's.

I haven't installed the Battery Temp sensor. I'm waiting for a project where I have to remove the battery. We installed these over a 2 month period. Some produced better starting and better MPG performance. Others are for reliability.
IAT
MAP
ECT
Oil Pressure
Cam position
Crank position
Battery Temp sensor
Rad cap
Rad thermostat, Cummins 190F
Rail pressure relief valve
Fuel Control Actuator
Rail Pressure
Wheel speed sensors
Trans speed sensor
Also replace harmonic balancer with Powerbond
 

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I don't have a list per say, I found all of these at Geno's Garage. I bought some from Geno's and others around the internet. If I were to do it again, I would buy what I can from NGK.com and the rest from Geno's.

I haven't installed the Battery Temp sensor. I'm waiting for a project where I have to remove the battery. We installed these over a 2 month period. Some produced better starting and better MPG performance. Others are for reliability.
IAT
MAP
ECT
Oil Pressure
Cam position
Crank position
Battery Temp sensor
Rad cap
Rad thermostat, Cummins 190F
Rail pressure relief valve
Fuel Control Actuator
Rail Pressure
Wheel speed sensors
Trans speed sensor
Also replace harmonic balancer with Powerbond
Which ones would you say helped the most with MPG and starting?
 
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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
Which ones would you say helped the most with MPG and starting?
IAT
MAP
Rail pressure relief valve
Fuel Control Actuator
Rail Pressure
 
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Thanks for the input. I didn't stress on the high iron content in my last oil analysis at 155,000 miles.

I was mostly curious what was in the oil after running 10K with Stiction Elimination oil treatment. An added bonus, no fuel or antifreeze in the oil. The higher than normal viscosity may have been SE cleaning up the engine.

When my fuel injectors give some indicators they are going out, I'll grab another oil sample for analysis or at 350K, which ever comes first. :ROFLMAO:

I'll be disappointed if my CTD only goes 350K. My average MPH is 30.9. No telling my average MPG. The first owner DD drove it around Houston and I use the truck to run errands as well as towing and solo trips.

I agree, most folks run these trucks until the quit, then work on them. I have no evidence and firmly believe, not getting ahead of items like batteries, battery cables and grounds leads to starter and alternator problems. That might lead to killing the ECU. Running sensors until they throw a code or quit falls into the same category. It's a snow ball effect.

Side note: Based on your nudge, I have engine and trans mounts on order. I'll post up the results. I hope that's about all the renewal it needs for another 20K.

Got to reading over at BITOG to update myself after your UOA reminder. Standard rule of thumb is that off-shelf products have all the money in marketing, not the product. Smaller firms, not so.

HPL Engine Cleaner

HPL website

BITOG discussion

Is getting traction. MolaKule impressed tells me it’s worth a run. Changing to their premium 5W-40 now on my list as I’m overdue for a change.

— I already run 1-year/15k OCI with T6 unless a fair amount of towing. Am concerned about availability of anything quality near future, not just oil. DONALDSON ELF-7349 filters. (A bypass filter I figure out which one).

— A note about the standard spin-on. No matter how good they don’t (can’t) do that much. “Quality” worthwhile, IMO, but won’t change problems occurring (if that’s the case).

— 4-5/yrs use unless I work it harder. Their crankcase cleaner beforehand then swap over. (50-60k outside).

Since any oil I’d want looks like I’d have to order, it’s this or Schaeffers. (Their #132 is worth having on hand. A small add — less than standard dose — is nice stuff. Penetro makes it worthy this way, IMO. All sorts of GP uses. I add it to my oil dispenser that’s used for about everything: Acetone + synthetic ATF and few “secret ingredients” (ha!)


A comp for you I ran across

Rotella T6 Comp


Now, what might a crankcase cleaner do for MPG? This one is getting carbon out of the engines being maintained by autists and experts. That shouldn’t — quite — be happening.

Rule of Thumb, again, is that a clean engine (rings; oil control ring especially = free to move) allows engine oil to best lubricate & control heat as it’s designed to do.

There is potential for lower internal friction and better combustion efficiency past lower potential wear & tear.

And an oil that comes in at above spec minimum is worth the expense for some customers. (Me).

— I don’t much give a damn about fleet reports as they run high miles in short years. Aren’t keeping them 20-years. Or that my 555-spec engine is easy on oil.

@Alcharger, I know you’re familiar with these ideas, but figured I’d add it as context for others.

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Got to reading over at BITOG to update myself after your UOA reminder. Standard rule of thumb is that off-shelf products have all the money in marketing, not the product. Smaller firms, not so.

HPL Engine Cleaner

HPL website

BITOG discussion

Is getting traction. MolaKule impressed tells me it’s worth a run. Changing to their premium 5W-40 now on my list as I’m overdue for a change.

— I already run 1-year/15k OCI with T6 unless a fair amount of towing. Am concerned about availability of anything quality near future, not just oil. DONALDSON ELF-7349 filters. (A bypass filter I figure out which one).

— A note about the standard spin-on. No matter how good they don’t (can’t) do that much. “Quality” worthwhile, IMO, but won’t change problems occurring (if that’s the case).

— 4-5/yrs use unless I work it harder. Their crankcase cleaner beforehand then swap over. (50-60k outside).

Since any oil I’d want looks like I’d have to order, it’s this or Schaeffers. (Their #132 is worth having on hand. A small add — less than standard dose — is nice stuff. Penetro makes it worthy this way, IMO. All sorts of GP uses. I add it to my oil dispenser that’s used for about everything: Acetone + synthetic ATF and few “secret ingredients” (ha!)


A comp for you I ran across

Rotella T6 Comp


Now, what might a crankcase cleaner do for MPG? This one is getting carbon out of the engines being maintained by autists and experts. That shouldn’t — quite — be happening.

Rule of Thumb, again, is that a clean engine (rings; oil control ring especially = free to move) allows engine oil to best lubricate & control heat as it’s designed to do.
rp
There is potential for lower internal friction and better combustion efficiency past lower potential wear & tear.

And an oil that comes in at above spec minimum is worth the expense for some customers. (Me).

— I don’t much give a damn about fleet reports as they run high miles in short years. Aren’t keeping them 20-years. Or that my 555-spec engine is easy on oil.

@Alcharger, I know you’re familiar with these ideas, but figured I’d add it as context for others.

.
EXCELLENT links, thank you!

I just joined BITOG forum and sent HLP a message for oil recommendations on a new race engine we are building. We will compare their recommendations to the hyped, high priced guys.

X2 on buying the market hyped oils/additives. I'm going to give our gas burner, 110K miles mostly DD, an oil treatment on the next oil change. When I adjusted the valves, I was a surprised how dark all the valve train components had become. I assume from oil deposits.
 
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There’s a pic in related threads of a Chev V8 with valve train and covers removed at 180,000 miles I’m not sure I’ve seen brand-new engines so clean.
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
There’s a pic in related threads of a Chev V8 with valve train and covers removed at 180,000 miles I’m not sure I’ve seen brand-new engines so clean.
I'll have to look for that Bowtie V8. That's amazing.

Internal combustion engines run a long time even with build up of contaminants.

How much better does a Bowtie V8 run with normal oil change intervals vs. the one in the picture?

There has to be a happy place for the average daily driver. The cost/time vs. life of engine/vehicle...

Side note: I put a pry bar on my engine and trans mounts. The appear to be firm. No visual cracks in the isolation rubber. The effort to change out the engine mount on the left side is more involved than I'm willing to do for minimum gains. I ordered a trans mount from Amazon. They sent the wrong mount. I'm going to keep checking these mounts on regular intervals.
 
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I'll have to look for that Bowtie V8. That's amazing.

Internal combustion engines run a long time even with build up of contaminants.

How much better does a Bowtie V8 run with normal oil change intervals vs. the one in the picture?

There has to be a happy place for the average daily driver. The cost/time vs. life of engine/vehicle...

Side note: I put a pry bar on my engine and trans mounts. The appear to be firm. No visual cracks in the isolation rubber. The effort to change out the engine mount on the left side is more involved than I'm willing to do for minimum gains. I ordered a trans mount from Amazon. They sent the wrong mount. I'm going to keep checking these mounts on regular intervals.
Thats why I asked about the mounts to see how it’d gone for your truck. Been a few years since I checked mine.

As to Chev V8’s they never were worth much, traditionally. Had a hard time with a load, and wore out pretty quickly assuming you kept subjecting them to a load.

The pics are impressive. It’s not a tow engine, it’s in a toy. But it still looks better than any I’ve ever seen. Not even noticeable discoloration.

.
 

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All things equal, how much are MPGs influenced by ambient temperature? I understand there are a ton of variables and other factors also described in @steve05ram360 various posts, but if you were to take a ballpark guess, would you say 20 degrees make a difference? This morning I ran 300 miles round trip, mostly cruise control @70 (2050 RPMs or so, 4.10 diff), and I seemed to have gotten a 1 mpg difference between the legs. 18 vs 17 mpg. Only material difference was temp at 70F when I left at 6 AM and 85 F when I returned around noon. I know it is too short of a trip to really put too much weight on it, but since turbos like cooler denser air, I figure there is some impact. Or is the difference inmaterial unloaded at those RPMs making 7-8 PSI of boost with EGTs between 7-8k?

PS: Pardon if this has been already discussed but could not find a reference after limited searching
 

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All things equal, how much are MPGs influenced by ambient temperature? I understand there are a ton of variables and other factors also described in @steve05ram360 various posts, but if you were to take a ballpark guess, would you say 20 degrees make a difference? This morning I ran 300 miles round trip, mostly cruise control @70 (2050 RPMs or so, 4.10 diff), and I seemed to have gotten a 1 mpg difference between the legs. 18 vs 17 mpg. Only material difference was temp at 70F when I left at 6 AM and 85 F when I returned around noon. I know it is too short of a trip to really put too much weight on it, but I since turbos like cooler denser air, I figure there is some impact. Or is the difference inmaterial unloaded at those RPMs making 7-8 PSI of boost with EGTs between 7-8k?

PS: Pardon if this has been already discussed but could not find a reference after limited searching
Climate trumps topography so it’s more a long-term use proposition. Gulf Coast is easier on truck versus North Dakota.

Cool dense air has higher resistance to the truck moving along. Higher altitude in desert can beat sea-level.

IAT ideal is 105-115F for steady-state cruise.
 

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All things equal, how much are MPGs influenced by ambient temperature? I understand there are a ton of variables and other factors also described in @steve05ram360 various posts, but if you were to take a ballpark guess, would you say 20 degrees make a difference? This morning I ran 300 miles round trip, mostly cruise control @70 (2050 RPMs or so, 4.10 diff), and I seemed to have gotten a 1 mpg difference between the legs. 18 vs 17 mpg. Only material difference was temp at 70F when I left at 6 AM and 85 F when I returned around noon. I know it is too short of a trip to really put too much weight on it, but since turbos like cooler denser air, I figure there is some impact. Or is the difference inmaterial unloaded at those RPMs making 7-8 PSI of boost with EGTs between 7-8k?

PS: Pardon if this has been already discussed but could not find a reference after limited searching
The warmer the air, the less aero resistance you will get. How much that adds to mpg, idnk. Warmer intake air temps definitely = better mpgs... Just be aware of that fan clutch limit.

In general, the higher the ambient air temp isthe less time it will take to get the truck heat soaked for the best mpgs. Meaning, differentials, bearings, transmission etc all will give a lesser amount of resistance hot vs cold
 

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I'd forgotten all about the pesky drag :rolleyes: Seems from your comments then, that the MPGs effect of a 15-20 degree swing in ambient temp in Flatistan's Gulf Coast is likely negligible in steady-state cruising.
On a side, but related note; I will report that thanks to you guyz I spent $70 bucks on that black "air dam" contraption under the front bumper that was missing in my truck! But I'll make my money back in MPG savings right?... Right?... (1,000,000 miles later). Truth is I disliked how it looked without it. :cool:
Wheel Tire Car Vehicle Land vehicle
Automotive parking light Car Vehicle Land vehicle Tire
 
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