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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-28-2019 06:58 PM
the man in black So you can get all 8 injectors out with out removing the cab?
08-28-2019 06:14 PM
BTGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyman859 View Post
Why do guys dislike the idea of having to pull the cab to get to injectors on a Powerstroke? I’m sure many mechanics don’t mind because they get paid by the hour…whether theyre pulling a cab or replacing break rotors. And they have an absurd amount of equipment to work with. The average truck owner wants a truck they can work on in theyre garage or driveway with a modest complement of tools, if necessary. Having to pull a cab to get at injectors is absurd. It just is.
Who, besides you, state you 'have to' pull the cab to change injectors? It's been said here ad nauseum that the cab is removed to facilitate easier work. Just another huge fallacy spread around here.
08-28-2019 06:05 PM
BTGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brownmember View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTGreen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepcalm0311 View Post
As a mechanical engineer, I am going to give RAM the benefit of the doubt that the CP4 went through further testing and evaluation and was revised.

You don't redesign a truck, with an HO motor (with different internals), an Aisin transmission, and pair it with a flawed fuel pump. Theres just no way they did that.
As a mechanical engineer, you should also know that the higher fuel psi pumps heavily rely on clean, dry diesel fuel. There is no formula for having a 30000+ psi pump survive contaminated fuel, even with the very best of surface coatings or filters.

Many people like to bash on manufacturers but don't like to admit they used fuel from the 'cheap' station down the road or never drained the water seperator on schedule.

I feel you give RAM waayy too much credit if you think their past performance is indicative of a positive, problem free future. Remember, this is the same company that usually has 10 open recalls per model year.

I firmly believe if the truck engine, any brand, is maintained well and according to schedule, it will provide a long reliable service life.

I get this is a RAM forum, but let's not loose a grip on reality here.
As a mechanical engineer you should read up on the CP4 Lawsuits against GM and Ford. My 2011 Duramax was extremely well maintained and the CP4 fuel pump wiped out the whole system at only 55k miles. $9k repair bill. You are basically accusing hundreds (maybe thousands now) of people that they dont maintain their diesels properly. Funny that some of these pumps have even failed as low as 10k miles.
Mentioning a lawsuit doesn't really build an argument, especially in this country. Just FYI.

Also, how do I know you maintained the truck properly? Because you said so? Did you always use fuels with a minimum 520 micron HFRR? Did you use fuel additives that increased fuel lubricity? While we're at it I have a bridge to sell you if you believe the fuels here are perfect.

Yes, there were many issues with early GM pumps failing, but why would it come as a surprise if the fuel given to the pump was not adequate? These pumps were engineered to run with a MINIMUM requirement of lubricity. The moment the fuel quality drops or supply psi from tank drops you will have a failure. I said this quite clearly in my first post.

Yes, shame on GM for not issuing a tsb sooner to mandate fuel additives. The people who realized this early on have hundreds of thousands of miles on their horrible cp4 pumps.

The Ford's, as I mentioned before, had a much much less failure rate. As to why I believe Ford had a better tank pump supply and larger water separator.

It's the nature of design to meet stringent emission requirements as well as quiet operation. Enter the 19 Cummins.
08-28-2019 01:18 PM
libertyman859 Why do guys dislike the idea of having to pull the cab to get to injectors on a Powerstroke? I’m sure many mechanics don’t mind because they get paid by the hour…whether theyre pulling a cab or replacing break rotors. And they have an absurd amount of equipment to work with. The average truck owner wants a truck they can work on in theyre garage or driveway with a modest complement of tools, if necessary. Having to pull a cab to get at injectors is absurd. It just is.
08-27-2019 09:58 PM
willydmax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indytruckchampion View Post
I have a good friend that's a Ford master diesel tech. He hates working on the new diesels. The cab has to be removed (been that way for a while) and it takes hours to get to anything vital. Ford warranty doesn't pay well and most of the time the claim is denied for warranty. If he wasn't so close to retiring he would have left in the last few years because of all the behind the scenes junk going on at Ford.
He must be a bit of a whiner because the 6.7 is not bad to work on and you for sure don't need to pull the cab to work on a lot of the engine. Pulling the turbo for example is an easy job. Takes me 1.5 hours and it's out. CP4 is not bad either. They look terrible at first look under the hood but they are not near as bad as lots of people think. Don't get me wrong I'm not a Ford fanboy. I don't like Ford but the 6.7 is a viable competitor in the diesel world. Just my $.02 from working on vehicles daily.
08-27-2019 09:10 PM
Bedlam The F650 and F750 use a flip front and the same cab as the pickup but a different frame. No idea about crash testing this setup. The entire F series share cabs.

The F450 pickup is more like a F400. The F450 chassis cab compares favorably to the Ram 4500. Ram does not have a counterpart to the F450 pickup and the 3500 lacks the heavy Dana, wide track front and 19.5” wheels.
08-27-2019 07:20 PM
Brownmember
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTGreen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepcalm0311 View Post
As a mechanical engineer, I am going to give RAM the benefit of the doubt that the CP4 went through further testing and evaluation and was revised.

You don't redesign a truck, with an HO motor (with different internals), an Aisin transmission, and pair it with a flawed fuel pump. Theres just no way they did that.
As a mechanical engineer, you should also know that the higher fuel psi pumps heavily rely on clean, dry diesel fuel. There is no formula for having a 30000+ psi pump survive contaminated fuel, even with the very best of surface coatings or filters.

Many people like to bash on manufacturers but don't like to admit they used fuel from the 'cheap' station down the road or never drained the water seperator on schedule.

I feel you give RAM waayy too much credit if you think their past performance is indicative of a positive, problem free future. Remember, this is the same company that usually has 10 open recalls per model year.

I firmly believe if the truck engine, any brand, is maintained well and according to schedule, it will provide a long reliable service life.

I get this is a RAM forum, but let's not loose a grip on reality here.
As a mechanical engineer you should read up on the CP4 Lawsuits against GM and Ford. My 2011 Duramax was extremely well maintained and the CP4 fuel pump wiped out the whole system at only 55k miles. $9k repair bill. You are basically accusing hundreds (maybe thousands now) of people that they dont maintain their diesels properly. Funny that some of these pumps have even failed as low as 10k miles.
08-27-2019 06:56 PM
marty0715 Dumber than words can describe. 3 cooling systems!!
08-27-2019 06:12 PM
BTGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pozzinator View Post

And to another point above: I think F-series maintains its “best selling” rating because of fleet sales. That and ford refuses to acknowledge that GMC and Chevy are the same, and I seem to recall that in the 1500-3500 segment the combined GM sales are higher than ford. But then again they also insist the 450 is a 1-ton and refuse to compare it to a Ram 4500 (because it’ll get smoked).

Buddy of mine is a powerstroke mechanic for a dealer in Dallas. His dad is a PS mechanic in Tampa. His whole family drives Cummins. PS owners pay for their really, really nice houses - Cummins trucks get them to work and back reliably day in and day out with just routine maintenance. My cousin is a process engineer for fomoco in Michigan. He drives a Ram too. That tells me everything I really need to know about the Cummins vs PS debate...
I'm glad anecdotal evidence is all you need to come to a conclusion.

I'm glad your buddy and his dad and family and your cousin are all happy driving Rams and fixing Fords all day long.

It's amazing how Ford even stays in business, those fleet managers must be really stupid to keep choosing these Fords. Must be losing millions of dollars paying your buddy and his dad and family members to fix them day in and out.

Makes you wonder how they even get any work done if all these Fords are breakin' down?

Your buddy and his dad should just tell them to buy the uber reliable RAM with the Cummins. I mean it'd be great for the taxpayer for all those government fleets, the millions they would save. We all know the entire RAM product is perfection in design and utility. I mean with just fluids and filters they run, like, a million miles. Even the tires last 100K.
08-26-2019 01:34 PM
El Pozzinator We’re already seeing that. GM and Tesla have sued over “intellectual property rights” trying to keep right-to-repair laws from getting passed. Those suits failed because they wanted to sell consumers the product but grant no outside access to the software or diagnostic tools to service it. Failure to pass those laws would’ve meant their vehicles could only be serviced by dealers or authorized repair facilities - Tesla in large part still is anyway due to the sheer complexity of their software and relative lack of people willing to pony up for the licenses or a shagged vehicle to practice on.

And to another point above: I think F-series maintains its “best selling” rating because of fleet sales. That and ford refuses to acknowledge that GMC and Chevy are the same, and I seem to recall that in the 1500-3500 segment the combined GM sales are higher than ford. But then again they also insist the 450 is a 1-ton and refuse to compare it to a Ram 4500 (because it’ll get smoked).

Buddy of mine is a powerstroke mechanic for a dealer in Dallas. His dad is a PS mechanic in Tampa. His whole family drives Cummins. PS owners pay for their really, really nice houses - Cummins trucks get them to work and back reliably day in and day out with just routine maintenance. My cousin is a process engineer for fomoco in Michigan. He drives a Ram too. That tells me everything I really need to know about the Cummins vs PS debate...


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08-26-2019 12:34 PM
EricPeterson
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTGreen View Post
You have some good points. I look at the probability of it even cropping up, which I why I don't understand the issue most on here bring it up ..... Many truck buyers don't even keep the vehicles longer than the warranty period, which is another reason why I don't get the griping.
There will always be a number of folks who make a purchase decision based on not being able to do their own engine swap, just like there are people who will make a purchase decision based on not being able to top off their own automatic transmission fluid in a lifetime fill auto with no dipstick and fill tube.... and those who will never ever drive an automatic at all. Practical decisions? Emotional decisions? Who's to say? As you note, it's not really likely to come up very often, let along come up for the small number of owners who would insist on fixing absolutely everything themselves. The two sets are both small and there isn't going to be much of an intersection... but there will be some, and those owners affected will be unhappy, and the mere fact of their existence will perpetuate the issue until all the like-minded crotchety codgers leave the marketplace when the last holdout refuses to buy electric some decades down the road.

And I say that fully and enthusiastically entrenched in the crotchety codger camp!

At some point we're going to see vehicles with drive system access panels that can only be opened with special tools and big warnings that say NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE. And I, for one, God willing, will still be griping about it.

JMHOs
08-26-2019 12:04 PM
BTGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricPeterson View Post
I think you were meaning to respond to someone else's comment. I was addressing only the notion that it would take minimal engineering to design a tilt cab assembly.

However, I think you're missing another point. While I don't plan on doing anything major to my drivetrain while it's under warranty -- and I've got a 7/84 max care plan -- I regularly do major work on our other vehicles that have no such luxury. Looking around here it's clear that a lot of buys with older Rams regularly swap engines as well.

For those of us who don't have access to a shop with a flexible 4-point lift, needing to pull a cab or a subframe to get to an engine is a big deal. My wife's Caddy succumbed to an accursed GM early timing chain failure -- an otherwise near new condition car just out of warranty suffered a catastrophic engine failure at just over 50k miles. The dealer wanted $11k to do that repair. Like heck I'm going to pay that when the long block was $3400 delivered. By the book, it's not possible to pull that quad OHC engine without doing it from underneath by dropping the subframe. The huge hemi heads totally block access to the upper transmission bolts. I don't happen to have a 4-point lift with swingarms to hold the unibody up while I drop the subframe, and I wasn't willing to do that with a pair -- or quartet -- of simple floor jacks. Pulling the blown engine was no big deal: I'd already torn it down for diagnosis and the heads were off. Installing the new engine without dropping the subframe meant, however, tearing it down -- including the gawdawful three-chain-six-tensioner-umpteen-plastic-guideway timing chain setup -- on the stand and then building it back up in place under the hood. That's a royal pain. And it's bad design -- a few fist-sized dents in the firewall would have mitigated the necessity of either dropping the subframe or swapping the engine in major modules.

Lifting a cab to swap an engine would be even less practical without a lift, and might not have a comparable workaround, no matter how much extra labor is involved. People who ultimately want to do their own major repairs aren't so much going to balk at the scope or breadth of the repair. Rather, they're going to be stymied by the lack of access to the proper equipment. I, for one, would not want to mess with trying to jack a cab off a chassis without the lift.

JMHO
You have some good points. I look at the probability of it even cropping up, which I why I don't understand the issue most on here bring it up.

The failure rate of the CP4 is easily less than 1 in 500 trucks, couple that with failure out of warranty, the requirement that the customer fix his/her own truck, and the requirement that said customer has no means of lifting the cab; it is of inappreciable probability.
However it is the #1 topic that gets brought up here about Ford. Do people really think Ford would be the best selling brand if all this doom and gloom was happening?

Many truck buyers don't even keep the vehicles longer than the warranty period, which is another reason why I don't get the griping.

If the worry of a major failure is this important, then I'd suggest staying with a pure mechanical 5.9 Cummins or 7.3/6.9 Ford and go all out Madmax style. Most of these new trucks will have many ancillary component failures long before a major one.
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