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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-05-2019 06:50 PM
Kilowatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy N. View Post
I'm guessing you meant to write 14,000, not 4,000 feet, right?
No?

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09-05-2019 06:38 PM
Jimmy N. I'm guessing you meant to write 14,000, not 4,000 feet, right?
09-05-2019 06:09 PM
Kilowatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy N. View Post
If I only bought fuel nearby, yes it would be simpler. What I was trying to say is that the climate can change quite a bit within an hour or two of driving from here.
Getting fuel on the way home, in the fall or winter, 500 miles away is most likely not blended for here. And I don't expect it to be.

My reason for bringing up altitude was simply because it affects temperature. I can gain 20-35 degrees by driving SSW for an hour. And I often get fuel there.
You have to realize that there are many refineries operating in or near the Rocky Mountains, we are one of them. Our distribution area has roughly a 1000 mile radius and ranges from sea level to 4000', in some cases even more. Some of our fuel even makes it up into the Arctic. There is a lot of thought, planning, historical data that goes into fuel deliveries, refining has been around for many years. Is it fool proof? Of course not, but like I said, we've never received any fuel back from retailers because it didn't meet requirements.

To give you a much more extreme example, think of the conditions a long haul aircraft goes though. It could take off in LA at sea level at 95°F, travel over the north pole at 40 thousand feet and land in Siberia at -40°F. They burn what is essentially a light diesel that must meet very strict specifications. Highway fuel obviously isn't blended to meet the same specs as jet fuel, I'm just pointing out that refineries can very easily blend to very broad conditions.

Anyways, I think I've beat this to death. I say keep using the Howes, it has many other benefits other than anti-gelling properties.


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09-05-2019 02:04 PM
ZeroFox
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grit dog View Post
Lol, marketing at it's best. Of course anti gel additives will keep fuel that needs it from gelling and say you're a hot-shot driver or OTR trucker and you can fill up enough fuel somewhere warm to get somewhere really cold on the same fuel. You're absolutely the guy that needs it.
Wonderin how Howes makes you prove you added their juice? I mean couldn't you get towed in, walk across the street to the Napa Auto, buy a bottle, dump half in the garbage and phone them up?
Video it? Send them a fuel sample to test?
Remember, believe nothing you hear and only half what you see.
You have to provide the receipts showing you purchased it by the case prior to your incident requiring a tow and with in 30 days you get a check. There is a neat little booklet in the bottom of the case that spells it all out on how to claim the reimbursement.And they also have points decals on the bottle neck and you can also get free swag from them. My wife has commandeered the sweatshirt I got from them. LOL

https://www.howeslube.com/guarantee
09-05-2019 01:30 PM
Kilowatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grit dog View Post
Since your the expert kilowatt and you know exactly how fuel is blended for winter, I'm still trying to figure out how it's terrible advice to state that, in general, one does not need to add off the shelf anti gel additives in the winter.
Are the millions of diesel engines that start up every day in colder climates without a bottle of Power Service dumped in just miracles, or what?

Unlike you, I don't know schitt about oil refining, but I've operated, managed or been around 1000s maybe 10000s of diesel engines in construction, many in the winter and it's not the case that adding anti gel is necessary in most cases. Even for winter work up on the N Slope AK, fuel came ready for use, because it was blended, specially produced, additive packages added, whatever was done to it, to work right outta the tanker truck.
That's all I'm saying. I do not doubt your knowledge in your profession.
Because that's a blanket statement, every region or even gas station could be different from the one you use. You are basing your opinion on past experience but in reality you have no guarantee that what you are buying hasn't been blended with off spec products. If you haven't had any problems buying fuel that's great, but it shouldn't be preached out to the other millions of diesel drivers. A lot of members here run tighter filtration on their truck, that should be considered when deciding whether or not to use additives.

As I said, I made it 15 years not using additives with my truck, last winter it froze up. I know for a fact the diesel I bought was on spec when it left the refinery, I can see the records here for the station I fill up at. However, somewhere along the line it was diluted.

I'm in no way saying you MUST use additives, I'm only saying it's bad advice to tell people NOT to use them. When I said crap shoot, it really is because there is no control over the fuel once it leaves the refinery. You have been lucky, I have not.

Use additives at your discretion.

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09-05-2019 01:19 PM
Jimmy N.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
Actually it's fairly easy to decide what to send to your hood. Look at a temperature trend for the last 20 years in your area. Find the lowest recorded temperature and blend to a temperature 5-10° below that temp.

Altitude has little effect, jet fuel is really just light diesel with much more stringent testing/certification etc.
If I only bought fuel nearby, yes it would be simpler. What I was trying to say is that the climate can change quite a bit within an hour or two of driving from here.
Getting fuel on the way home, in the fall or winter, 500 miles away is most likely not blended for here. And I don't expect it to be.

My reason for bringing up altitude was simply because it affects temperature. I can gain 20-35 degrees by driving SSW for an hour. And I often get fuel there.
09-05-2019 12:59 PM
Grit dog Since your the expert kilowatt and you know exactly how fuel is blended for winter, I'm still trying to figure out how it's terrible advice to state that, in general, one does not need to add off the shelf anti gel additives in the winter.
Are the millions of diesel engines that start up every day in colder climates without a bottle of Power Service dumped in just miracles, or what?

Unlike you, I don't know schitt about oil refining, but I've operated, managed or been around 1000s maybe 10000s of diesel engines in construction, many in the winter and it's not the case that adding anti gel is necessary in most cases. Even for winter work up on the N Slope AK, fuel came ready for use, because it was blended, specially produced, additive packages added, whatever was done to it, to work right outta the tanker truck.
That's all I'm saying. I do not doubt your knowledge in your profession.
09-05-2019 12:45 PM
Kilowatt Actually it's fairly easy to decide what to send to your hood. Look at a temperature trend for the last 20 years in your area. Find the lowest recorded temperature and blend to a temperature 5-10° below that temp. Altitude has little effect, jet fuel is really just light diesel with much more stringent testing/certification etc.

For what it's worth, I have never seen a load returned to the refinery due to not meeting temperature specs, the problems can almost always be traced back to storage/transportation/retain issues. I have however seen diesel returned because it was blended with gasoline but that's a story for another day...

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09-04-2019 10:03 PM
Jimmy N. Can't say that I know what we normally get around here.

What I do know is that we often have 50-degree temperature swings in a day, and no matter what direction I go I'm losing altitude. Anywhere from just a few thousand to much more (starting at 7,500) if I drive more than 75 miles.

Of course, I can gain over 3,000 feet within 20 miles, too, but there are no gas stations there.

In other words, it must be easier said than done to decide what fuel to send to this 'hood. Sometimes it drops to -20, sometimes not.
Maybe now you understand why I use anti-gel (usually Howes) in the winter, no matter what.
09-04-2019 09:42 PM
Kilowatt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy N. View Post
Which should mean that me buying diesel primarily in the summer, then treating it against gelling as needed, should be the ideal situation.
Depends what specifications the refinery must meet in your area are. I doubt you would notice a difference, I certainly don't in my truck. Some of the tanker drivers that load up at the refinery say they can pull an extra gear up the hills in summer when loaded, but I don't drive for a living so...

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09-04-2019 06:54 PM
Jimmy N.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilowatt View Post
That's the trade off, the end product has fewer molecules in it allowing it to flow when colder, but it also contains less energy.
Which should mean that me buying diesel primarily in the summer, then treating it against gelling as needed, should be the ideal situation.
09-04-2019 05:50 PM
Kilowatt Let me explain a little more...

Refineries don't buy huge totes of chemicals to treat winter fuels, it would cost them millions of dollars and as we all know oil companies are in the business of making extraordinary profits. Rather than spend money on chemicals, the process can be optimized to produce a lighter diesel that flows without chemical treatment in winter. Here is a picture of a crude distillation tower which separates crude oil based on the boiling points of the various components. The heavier (specific gravity) fluids settle toward the bottom of the tower, and the lighter fluids rise to the top. As you can see, the components coming out of the upper half of the tower all flow freely in colder months, the lower down the tower you go the quicker the product will set up as the temperature drops.




Right in the middle is the diesel output. It's pretty clear the boiling point is higher, and has a higher specific gravity than gasoline; this is why is doesn't flow as readily as gasoline as the temperature drops. Simply put, there are more molecules in diesel than gas (and thus more BTU's). So what do the refineries do? They optimize the diesel production to produce diesel that is closer in composition to kerosene which you can see is lighter. That's the trade off, the end product has fewer molecules in it allowing it to flow when colder, but it also contains less energy. They can only optimize the production so much without going off spec, the heavier diesel that can't be "optimized" is stored in the tank farm until temperatures warm up. Refineries are self sustaining, meaning is doesn't cost them money to fire the heaters harder to optimize the outputs to their liking, makes more sense than buying millions of dollars in chemicals.

Oh, and one other point, refineries are pretty good at delivering on spec product, the equipment doing the blending at the racks is no joke. Refineries also have on site labs that test the fuels as they are produced, and the blending facilities are federally inspected/certified/proved. Once it leaves the gate, anything can happen...

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