Stuffing a Cummins into a 94 Ram 250B Van - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
General Diesel Discussion Discuss General Topics related to the Cummins , Dodge Rams , Other Diesels Ect....NO ADVERTISING

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
Cummins Nut
 
jham's 06' 5.9L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Pensacola, Fl
Posts: 409
Thanks: 50
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Stuffing a Cummins into a 94 Ram 250B Van

So just as the title reads, I am starting to research the process and everything that is needed to properly swap a Cummins into a 94 Ram 250B Van.

To start I am just looking for advice from some who know far more then me about what route I should go. I am currently debating between a 4bt or a 5.9 12 valve.

A little background on what the van is for and why we're doing this swap. We own a fencing company and use it as a work van daily. It carries a few 100 lbs. of tools and occasionally we load up materials inside of it. However, we also pull a small utility trailer and sometimes a dual axle flatbed trailer with up to 6,000 lbs. on it. Usually travel between 50 to 100 miles daily.

The van has a 318 and I'm having a hard time finding what transmission (47re or 46rh, etc.) it has in there..either way the trans is shot and will likely become a core for a new unit. The rear end is in good shape so might save it if it will hold the torque of a Cummins.

What I intend to do is basically hack out all the 94 control systems and stub in a rebuilt Cummins motor w/trans and ecm to run the whole shebang..also want to have working AC as it is always hot here in NWFL!

My personal thoughts are I want to go with the 4bt due to size concerns within the engine bay of the van and also we don't need big power numbers but just a solid powerplant that can cruise at 65-70 on the interstate and isn't a complete pig from a dead stop. I have an 06' 2500 Ram modded up for all the fun stuff and very heavy towing so as long as the 4bt can meet our needs that is the route I would like to go.

So with all that said I am sure some of you folks have a lot of experience with both a 4bt and a 5.9 12 valve..what would really be the best option for what I have described above?

As a side note I have I have snooped around in the 4btswaps.com forum, created a user profile and such, but it is not letting me post over there yet for some reason. I have been a member here for a few years so figured I would give it a shot and see what some of you all think!

Thanks in advance for taking time to read my ramblings and thank you for any responses.


2006 Ram 2500 QCSB 4X2 SLT, G56, BBI Stage 1's, 62/65 Tater Built HE351, FASS 150, EFI Live by Gordon, Valair dual disc organic
jham's 06' 5.9L is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 08:34 PM
Moderator
 
9297oldram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Huntington In.
Posts: 19,984
Thanks: 627
Thanked 2,172 Times in 2,029 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
The 47re is a diesel only trans.

The 12v needs no ECM for it to run so it makes for a easy swap.

The gears in the van and the trans that you use will determine your cruising speed.

84 K5 Blazer 97 12v, 47re with E-TransControl, Dodge Dana 60 with free spin hubs, Dana 70, B&M Mega shifter

96 F350 SC dually zf5, 4x4, 92 Cummins, THD 5x12's, THD fuel pin, THD HVLP with adjustable fuel pressure mod, WM, h1c 60/60/12cm WG wired
9297oldram is online now  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
Cummins Nut
 
jham's 06' 5.9L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Pensacola, Fl
Posts: 409
Thanks: 50
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9297oldram View Post
The 47re is a diesel only trans.

The 12v needs no ECM for it to run so it makes for a easy swap.

The gears in the van and the trans that you use will determine your cruising speed.
Thanks for correcting my ignorance! I have been reading up on diesel trucks for so long I got those transmission types stuck in my head..

As far as gears go it has a 3.73 rear end already tho it will probably need better guys after being mated to a Cummins..I know we will need a new driveshaft and there is a place out of Texas that makes quality single piece units to custom length..

I guess my biggest concerns are two fold..

1. Would a 12 valve 5.9 fit in the space available on a 94 Ram van? I know it has a 318 in it now but it is damn tight in that engine bay and my feelings are a 5.9 would be too long and wide overall to fill the space without doing some crazy fabricating to make it fit and look right..

2. If 5.9 is too hard to fit could I get a 4bt to do what we need as far as towing up to 6-8,000 lbs. reliably both around town and on the interstate?

2006 Ram 2500 QCSB 4X2 SLT, G56, BBI Stage 1's, 62/65 Tater Built HE351, FASS 150, EFI Live by Gordon, Valair dual disc organic
jham's 06' 5.9L is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 09:52 AM
Diesel Freak
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: South Texas
Posts: 596
Thanks: 1
Thanked 75 Times in 61 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Here's another alternative for you: an Isuzu 4BD2TC. They're relatively common in mid-'90s NPRs, cheaper than 4BTs. They have an SAE bell housing so it's relatively easy to find an adapter to, say, a Chevy big block pattern, so you can fit up common trannies like a TH400 or a Muncie 465 ... just in case you want to pull stumps too. Rebuild kits are inexpensive from places like Rudy's Diesel, and the only tough part of the rebuild is fabricating a wet liner puller.... if you can't find one from someone on the forums who's already done it. And they're very compact. I fit one into my '64 Land Rover Series 2A -- the older body style with the pushed-back center grill and lights.

The full size Dodge vans were fitted with the slant six. I found some good photos here:

1986 Dodge Van

Look at how tight that engine is between the radiator and the engine cover rear extent. The Cummins has go be substantially longer -- a 5.9 l vs. 3.7 l. I'll bet the only way you could make it fit would be to extend the engine cover rearwards. Sounds like a nightmare of noise and heat control. You don't need that much power and torque. You can uptune a 4-cylinder to get 180 to 200 hp pretty easily, and put a slightly bigger turbo on a 4BT or a 4BD2 and push 300 hp without even half trying.

Although ... now that I think about it... the thought of a turbo under that plastic engine cover kinda scares me. That's a lot more heat than the van configuration is set up to handle. You can add a lot of thermal blanketing... you'll have the space if you go with a 4 cylinder.... but insulation just delays heat. Doesn't stop it. You're not exactly in a cool part of the country. If you're just driving to and from jobsites... not too bad... but if you've got to run it a lot, like a delivery truck, or in traffic... I'm not sure how that will work out.

2016 3500 LL CC LB 4x4 CTD DRW Delmonico red. BDS 3" truss radius arms & 3" coils w/double Fox 2.0s. Synergy drag link & tie rod. Dual stabilizers.
Carli track bar. Carli torsion anti-sway. Synergy steering box stabilizer. Rear 2" blocks. Weldcraft 17x8 custom steel duallies w/Mickey Thompson 295/70-17 ATXP3s.
AEV axle covers. AEV vented hood. Luverne polished stainless steel boards. Bakflip MX4 hard cover. Bushwacker max coverage flares.
B-pillar vinyl delete. Mopar door chrome. Areion semi-truck flap mounts. Steelcraft polished stainless light guards.
EricPeterson is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
Cummins Nut
 
jham's 06' 5.9L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Pensacola, Fl
Posts: 409
Thanks: 50
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Thanks Eric..yeah, though I didn't mention it heat is a big concern I have..everything is just so tight in there, not a lot of breathing room.. I have read about others plumbing out the turbo to fit lower in the compartment to help with fitment and heat issues..

I have not looked at the ISUZU motor option as I am just starting to kick this idea around and found the 4bt forum with all the swaps and conversions people have done on there..but the ISUZU option sounds good due to the range of transmissions you can mate to it..I know the engine can produce the power with a little effort from experience with my truck..it's insane how simply getting a good tune, bigger injectors, and a bigger charger will turn an 8,000 lb beast into a diesel powered rocket sled! Lol, so yes, not too concerned about getting the power we need..however in that same vein I want it to be reliable and not something I'm constantly working on/tweaking to get it right..

2006 Ram 2500 QCSB 4X2 SLT, G56, BBI Stage 1's, 62/65 Tater Built HE351, FASS 150, EFI Live by Gordon, Valair dual disc organic
jham's 06' 5.9L is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 12:51 PM
Moderator
 
9297oldram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Huntington In.
Posts: 19,984
Thanks: 627
Thanked 2,172 Times in 2,029 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
A 12v will be the same length as your 2006's engine just take some measurements. The 4 bt would be a better fit and with some pump tuning and injectors i'm sure it would move the van, and you can bolt about any trans to it also.

84 K5 Blazer 97 12v, 47re with E-TransControl, Dodge Dana 60 with free spin hubs, Dana 70, B&M Mega shifter

96 F350 SC dually zf5, 4x4, 92 Cummins, THD 5x12's, THD fuel pin, THD HVLP with adjustable fuel pressure mod, WM, h1c 60/60/12cm WG wired
9297oldram is online now  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
Cummins Nut
 
jham's 06' 5.9L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Pensacola, Fl
Posts: 409
Thanks: 50
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9297oldram View Post
A 12v will be the same length as your 2006's engine just take some measurements. The 4 bt would be a better fit and with some pump tuning and injectors i'm sure it would move the van, and you can bolt about any trans to it also.
Yeah the more I look at pictures and such I can tell a 12 valve will likely be too much motor to cram into that space without getting all cutting torch and welding crazy on it..I'm okay with fabbing up a custom heat shield box to cover it up in the cab but I would rather not have to stretch the whole engine bay horizontally to fit it..but as you said I will put a tape to my 06' for a rough length to see if it is feasible..

As far as tuning up a 4bt I read a few posts over in the 4bt swap forums about guys stuffing them into Dodge Dakotas and making some solid power numbers before they twisted their frames and such..again, not looking to beat anything but a bicycle off the line as it is going to be strictly a work van..but I just don't want it to struggle when merging on to the interstate and the like..

I do have a stock HE351 from my 06 sitting in the garage needing a rebuild..hmm...I should email Martin at BBI to see if they do up injectors for a 4bt..if I could get those sticks with that charger to work together right and some good tuning on it I bet it could break the 250-300hp range and put down 400+ in torque..that would be my goal anyways..that power range would tow most anything we need comfortably and still get decent mileage I would think..and it should all fit with a little "how'd they do that!?" engineering..

2006 Ram 2500 QCSB 4X2 SLT, G56, BBI Stage 1's, 62/65 Tater Built HE351, FASS 150, EFI Live by Gordon, Valair dual disc organic
jham's 06' 5.9L is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 01:54 PM
Diesel Freak
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: South Texas
Posts: 596
Thanks: 1
Thanked 75 Times in 61 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by jham's 06' 5.9L View Post
Thanks Eric..yeah, though I didn't mention it heat is a big concern I have..everything is just so tight in there, not a lot of breathing room.. I have read about others plumbing out the turbo to fit lower in the compartment to help with fitment and heat issues..

I have not looked at the ISUZU motor option as I am just starting to kick this idea around and found the 4bt forum with all the swaps and conversions people have done on there..but the ISUZU option sounds good due to the range of transmissions you can mate to it..I know the engine can produce the power with a little effort from experience with my truck..it's insane how simply getting a good tune, bigger injectors, and a bigger charger will turn an 8,000 lb beast into a diesel powered rocket sled! Lol, so yes, not too concerned about getting the power we need..however in that same vein I want it to be reliable and not something I'm constantly working on/tweaking to get it right..
Yeah, the mid-'90s Isuzu 4BD2TCs have the classic injector pump More Power Adjustment Screw. Turn it, more fuel, more power. Then you go to a larger turbo, lots more power. Let me be clear that the SAE industrial bellhousing generally mates with an adapter... just that the BB chevy adapter is pretty common. I'll bet per above that the 4BT probably works the same way. I know all of the 4BTs we've seen at work have the SAE bellhousing too.

2016 3500 LL CC LB 4x4 CTD DRW Delmonico red. BDS 3" truss radius arms & 3" coils w/double Fox 2.0s. Synergy drag link & tie rod. Dual stabilizers.
Carli track bar. Carli torsion anti-sway. Synergy steering box stabilizer. Rear 2" blocks. Weldcraft 17x8 custom steel duallies w/Mickey Thompson 295/70-17 ATXP3s.
AEV axle covers. AEV vented hood. Luverne polished stainless steel boards. Bakflip MX4 hard cover. Bushwacker max coverage flares.
B-pillar vinyl delete. Mopar door chrome. Areion semi-truck flap mounts. Steelcraft polished stainless light guards.
EricPeterson is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 02:04 PM
Diesel Freak
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: South Texas
Posts: 596
Thanks: 1
Thanked 75 Times in 61 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by jham's 06' 5.9L View Post

As far as tuning up a 4bt I read a few posts over in the 4bt swap forums about guys stuffing them into Dodge Dakotas and making some solid power numbers before they twisted their frames and such..again, not looking to beat anything but a bicycle off the line as it is going to be strictly a work van..but I just don't want it to struggle when merging on to the interstate and the like..
Astonishing how much torque and power you can get out of the nominal 4L 4-cylinder diesels. Can't find it now ... used to be a youtube video of the guy who manufacturers the 4BD2TC to BB chevy adapter ring and spindle set with a massive twin turbo upgrade to the little Isuzu engine in a Silverado on the dragstrip. The thing pulled wheelies. He'd gone through half a dozen iterations to get there, but the end result was super impressive. I wanna say he was manufacturing the adapter sets out of Irving... someplace up near DFW.

I'm totally sure without even looking that the 4BT community has produced similar results at the end of their bell curve. Those guys have got to be out there.

2016 3500 LL CC LB 4x4 CTD DRW Delmonico red. BDS 3" truss radius arms & 3" coils w/double Fox 2.0s. Synergy drag link & tie rod. Dual stabilizers.
Carli track bar. Carli torsion anti-sway. Synergy steering box stabilizer. Rear 2" blocks. Weldcraft 17x8 custom steel duallies w/Mickey Thompson 295/70-17 ATXP3s.
AEV axle covers. AEV vented hood. Luverne polished stainless steel boards. Bakflip MX4 hard cover. Bushwacker max coverage flares.
B-pillar vinyl delete. Mopar door chrome. Areion semi-truck flap mounts. Steelcraft polished stainless light guards.
EricPeterson is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
Cummins Nut
 
jham's 06' 5.9L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Pensacola, Fl
Posts: 409
Thanks: 50
Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by jham's 06' 5.9L View Post
Yeah, the mid-'90s Isuzu 4BD2TCs have the classic injector pump More Power Adjustment Screw. Turn it, more fuel, more power. Then you go to a larger turbo, lots more power. Let me be clear that the SAE industrial bellhousing generally mates with an adapter... just that the BB chevy adapter is pretty common. I'll bet per above that the 4BT probably works the same way. I know all of the 4BTs we've seen at work have the SAE bellhousing too.
Yes, a good simple system to use and work on is key for us..if it goes down for some reason I want to be able to eliminate potential problems quickly and fix on it myself..I want to build it myself but as this would be my first total rebuild I will probably look for a local shop for some help when needed..

I would also guess one of the best ways to get a hold of either a 4BD2TC or a 4BT would be to buy a whole donor vehicle so I have almost everything I need to swap from?

And yes I got what you meant about the motors needing an adapter to fit up to the transmission but that they are common enough it should be relatively easy to find and make work..as you said I assume the Cummins is the same way!

2006 Ram 2500 QCSB 4X2 SLT, G56, BBI Stage 1's, 62/65 Tater Built HE351, FASS 150, EFI Live by Gordon, Valair dual disc organic
jham's 06' 5.9L is offline  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 03:31 PM
Diesel Freak
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: South Texas
Posts: 596
Thanks: 1
Thanked 75 Times in 61 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by jham's 06' 5.9L View Post
I would also guess one of the best ways to get a hold of either a 4BD2TC or a 4BT would be to buy a whole donor vehicle so I have almost everything I need to swap from?
Not sure about the 4BT, although I would assume its use in panel vans would mean Yes. I was after a 4BD2TC for a couple reasons: (1) it was offered OEM in series 4 defenders in Australia, so the crossmember was an off-the-shelf part, (2) they were cheaper than 4BTs, (3) I knew they fit in series 2 Land Rovers because I'd seen it done and (4) I knew they could be mated to GM transmissions. Yes, I bought a wrecked '94 Isuzu NPR cab-chassis ... the box van body already having been scrapped for the aluminum content. Got the whole vehicle for for $2500, running, but badly tweaked. Sold off the tires, wheels, Aisin automatic, rear axle, body panels, glass. Kept the engine, intercooler, radiator, fuel tank, exhaust break, bla bla bla. Came out way, way ahead.

2016 3500 LL CC LB 4x4 CTD DRW Delmonico red. BDS 3" truss radius arms & 3" coils w/double Fox 2.0s. Synergy drag link & tie rod. Dual stabilizers.
Carli track bar. Carli torsion anti-sway. Synergy steering box stabilizer. Rear 2" blocks. Weldcraft 17x8 custom steel duallies w/Mickey Thompson 295/70-17 ATXP3s.
AEV axle covers. AEV vented hood. Luverne polished stainless steel boards. Bakflip MX4 hard cover. Bushwacker max coverage flares.
B-pillar vinyl delete. Mopar door chrome. Areion semi-truck flap mounts. Steelcraft polished stainless light guards.
EricPeterson is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2019, 03:41 PM
Moderator
 
9297oldram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Huntington In.
Posts: 19,984
Thanks: 627
Thanked 2,172 Times in 2,029 Posts
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Finding the complete donor vehicle with a 4bt probably will be hard to come by. But Diesel Conversion Specialists and Destroked make adapters to adapt a Cummins to about any trans. I'd suggest a 47rh from a 94 or 95 Dodge Cummins truck.

84 K5 Blazer 97 12v, 47re with E-TransControl, Dodge Dana 60 with free spin hubs, Dana 70, B&M Mega shifter

96 F350 SC dually zf5, 4x4, 92 Cummins, THD 5x12's, THD fuel pin, THD HVLP with adjustable fuel pressure mod, WM, h1c 60/60/12cm WG wired
9297oldram is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stuffing 37's under a 2" lifted truck? barronj Tire and Wheel 3rd Gen 4 11-18-2018 09:42 PM
Seat Stuffing jus10inla 4th Gen Non-Powertrain 5 04-28-2014 12:01 PM
Anyone like stuffing? KILO Cummins Off Roading 15 01-23-2010 04:26 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome