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Gale Banks Question and Answer

106K views 87 replies 58 participants last post by  jklove 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi everyone,

Welcome to our First ever question and answer with Diesel Engineer Gale Banks!

This question thread will be open till the 22nd of November. Upon the close of the thread Gale will be logging onto the site and will only be answering select questions. So make sure you are asking some good questions!

Please use this thread to submit any questions that you would like to see Gale answer.

So please ask away and enjoy.

If you are new to Cumminsforum, Don't forget to register to participate!
 
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#4 ·
Any plans for turbo or supercharger kits? I believe it was Xtreme 4x4 that did an install on a red Dodge, back in 05 probably, that had a VGT turbo, what happened to that project?
 
#5 ·
What is the reason the speed of diesel combustion is so much slower than gasoline, it is obvious to me that if we could speed up diesel engines, move the torque curve further up the rpm range, we would generate much more power. Is it as simple as flame front propagation speed or is there something else I am missing; possibly being forced to inject the fuel later in the compression stroke? I know the move to CRD injection moved the peak torque up ~500rpm but is that the limit of combustion speed?

Also what are the intake air temperatures vs. ambient of you intake system with NO scoop for the LB7?
 
#59 ·
Again there are some nuances that are different with gasoline applications, but I will focus my response toward use in a diesel. The primary difference between using straight water and using a 50/50 mix of water-methanol is power. The methanol is a fuel and will contribute to the power output accordingly as it is burned. The water is only used as a heat absorber whether it is used alone or in a mix. I generally recommend that water alone be used in situations where EGT is a problem. In our testing we have seen EGT reduction of over 200 degrees at the turbine inlet with water injection. This is significant for an application that struggles with high EGT. But water alone will not deliver any significant power increase. I have seen some companies that sell injection systems promote a “steam-engine” effect, stating that when water is vaporized during the combustion cycle, it rapidly expands and increases cylinder pressure… Bogus! The pressure resulting from the changing state of the water from a liquid to a vapor is far below the cylinder pressure, so it cannot contribute to the power output. Because water injection does have a cooling effect on combustion temperatures, it is also effective at lowering NOx production from the engine.
 
#7 ·
Any plans for an affordable and reliable propane injection system for 2nd gen and later 24v engines?

with the cost of fuel these days and propane generally being a far cheaper fuel, the cost-vs-mpg benefits of injecting propane to increase fuel mileage in most cases offsets the costs of the injected propane saving the end user some money on fuel and in some cases documented on this forum users have had gains of up to 7mpg using propane injection and the savings in diesel fuel more than paid for the propane used + extra in pocket savings.


We have been seeing fewer and fewer offerings for propane injection leaving the market pretty much wide open.

Personally if I had a easy to install kit that ran itself either mechanically or electronically to inject just enough propane for a mileage gain but not enough to cause excess egts or engine knock that was affordable and featured a tank mount between the bed and the frame, or between the frame rails, I would love to run it!

if I could get my 15mpg rig into the 20mpg range I would be jumping up in down happy! but I'm not about to spend $1000 for a kit...if it isn't affordable then the kit will never pay for itself in savings. $500 I could swing, upwards of that no way...
 
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#71 ·
I am currently using a system I put together from a description from another forum member with a little modification I incorporated from my hydrogen system. It is called "BBQ" system., the major difference in the initial design is the 1.5 LPM from a BBQ tank through a valve with variable adjustment and a 12V shut off valve. All for less than 200.00.
 
#10 ·
I agree. I would like to know the science behind water methanol injection. Why does it work? Does it have any long term issues? I know that automotive manufacturers have toyed with this in the past. If it is this good why are they not utilizing this technology?
 
#58 ·
Thanks to all of you for submitting questions. Since the designated topic for this Q&A is Water-Methanol injection, I will begin by answering questions related to that subject, then move on to some of the other questions if time allows. First I think it would be prudent to discuss some of the basics of water-methanol injection. This technology is not new. It has roots in automotive use as far back as the 1920’s when it was used in taxi-cab fleets as an octane booster. Water-methanol injection offers benefits for both gasoline engines and diesel engines, but since this is a Cummins forum, I will limit my discussion primarily to the benefits available to diesels. The science is relatively simple, and speaks to a subject that I have been talking about for some time now: AIR DENSITY. If you are at all familiar with my products, you know that I focus heavily on getting air into the cylinder in order to effectively use/burn the fuel and therefore make power. The density of the air is a measure of its mass per unit volume; in other words, how many air molecules are packed into a given space… in this case, the space in the cylinders of the engine. The air density is affected by three things: The air pressure (usually identified as boost in diesel circles), the air temperature and the moisture content of the air (humidity). Air density is best when pressures are high and temperatures are low. The greater the density of the air entering the engine, the happier I am! Water-methanol injection is first about improving air density as a result of lower intake air temperatures. Whether we are injecting straight water, or a mixture of water and methanol, the fluid is introduced to the intake air in a very fine mist. This allows for a rapid evaporation of the water. As the water evaporates and converts to a gaseous state, it absorbs heat from the surrounding air, effectively cooling it down and consequently increasing its density. If the quantity of water is small, this evaporation may be complete before the air ever enters the cylinder; with greater quantities the process may continue right up until the combustion process. When methanol is also present, it also absorbs some heat and evaporates, but once it is present in the cylinder as either a liquid or a vapor, it will burn as an additive fuel. Because the auto-ignition temperature of methanol (875°F) is much higher than diesel (410°F), the diesel will always begin to burn first, and the burning of the methanol will contribute to the combustion process, increasing cylinder pressure moderately throughout the burn and increasing power. The amount of added power is, of course, dependent on the amount of methanol present, as well as the amount of oxygen available to combust it.

One of the nice things about methanol as a power adder is that it doesn’t advance the combustion timing and doesn’t result in cylinder pressure spikes due to its progressive burning with the diesel fuel. So to answer your question about long term issues, there are none that result from increased cylinder pressures within reasonable power limits (racing applications aside). However, methanol is a corrosive agent and therefore it is important to select system components that will withstand the effects of methanol. The injection lines that we use are nylon 6-6 and the fittings are nickel plated brass with EPDM o-rings, all methanol resistant and stable.

Automotive manufacturers rely heavily on fuel infrastructure, and this could be the reason that we have never seen widespread use of water-methanol injection in vehicles from the OEMs. However, the acceptance of secondary fluids/fuels is starting to change, particularly with the introduction of urea on late model diesels. Ford recently has been experimenting with methanol injection in a gasoline direct injected engine with some impressive results. In a vehicle application this would require two separate fuel tanks, which means that consumers would need to be comfortable maintaining two different fuel tank levels. With more attention given to alternative fuels, lower emissions, higher fuel economy standards, etc, it is possible that the OEMs will give more attention to features like water-methanol injection.
 
#11 ·
If you are planning on entering the market with a water meth injection system will it have 2 modes, similar to Snow Injection's MPG and TOW modes? Will there be a multi stage system that ramps up to keep EGTs below a user selectable level?
 
#63 ·
Both the Banks Straight-Shot and the Snow MPG-Max are 2 stage systems, in which the 2 stages can be triggered independent of one another. But the similarities end there. As was previously mentioned, triggering control can be done with the manifold pressure signal with an EGT control overlay. But once you have triggered the system, the control of fluid flow in relation to engine demand becomes your primary concern. Some systems use a simple pressure switch to activate the injection activity, but do nothing to modulate the flow control. The result is a situation where you never really get the desired amount of fluid; it is always too little (prior to the system engaging) or too much (after injection has begun).

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Snow takes control a step further. His controller is somewhat progressive, increasing pump duty cycle in steps of 25, 50, 75 and 100% as boost pressure increases. The result is better than the pressure switch, but still doesn’t achieve a true match of the engine demand curve; you will always be slightly above or below your desired injection amount.

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The Banks Straight-Shot is fully progressive with the ability to match the engine demand curve nearly dead on. The user has the ability to select the trigger point and the maximum delivery point and quantity. When two stages of injection are used, both stages are accounted for in the pump ramp rate progression to allow for a smooth transition between stages. This flexibility also allows for use of a small nozzle during cruise conditions and the addition of large nozzles when power is desired under heavy load conditions.

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Manifold pressure is the primary control method in this scenario, but control can be altered by EGT as well. As fluid delivery increases, as EGT reaches the user defined set point, the controller can either add additional fluid (for water only) or reduce fluid delivery (for water-methanol).
 
#12 · (Edited)
So you call out Scheid, Hypermax, and Wade Moody, but you call them out to the track that is in your back yard and the farthest from all of them. Why not meet somewhere in the middle? I think it is great that you are going to race this year, but why not come out and race the whole NHRDA circuit like a lot of the other teams out there?
 
#13 ·
So you call out Scheid, Hypermax, and Wade Moody, but you call them out to the peace that is in your back yard and the farthest from all of them. Why not meet somewhere in the middle? I think it is great that you are going to race this year, but why not come out and peace the whole NHRDA circuit like a lot of the other teams out there?
absolutely this ^^^^
 
#83 ·
By the way, feel free to call us this weekend. We will be having Black Friday promotions on the Straight-Shot product along with many other items!

Will you be running the full NHRDA circuit, or at least the West Coast events and World Finals?
Right now my plans include bringing the rail to Famoso for the season opener and that’s about it. I may bring the S-10 truck out too if there is someone planning on coming to match race. I am not opposed to attending some of the NHRDA national events as well, but I am committed to a program with our Pikes Peak Freightliner Super-Turbo and that may take precedence.

Can you give us an update on your project vehicles, where have they been since completion and what have they been doing over the years?

There's the Sidewinder Dakota, the GMC Sierra road race truck, the dragster, the S10.
The Sidewinder Dakota, the GMC Sidewinder Type-R road race truck and the S-10 are all currently on display at the Wally Parks NHRA museum in Pomona, CA along with the Pontiac Firebird and Geisler Studebaker Bonneville cars and most of my business history. Feel free to stop by and take a look if you are in the area. There is a lot of racing history of all sorts in that building.

When will products developed and used for the Banks racing program be available for sale to the public?
They are available now! The Big Hoss intake manifold for the Cummins 5.9L common rail engine that we developed and used on the Sidewinder Dakota is available. We also sell a pair of Duramax Big Hoss manifolds, and some sled pull guys are using our marine intake manifold with integrated intercooler. We are in the process of prepping some of the internal components that we have used for sale as well.
 
#17 ·
Can you give us an update on your project vehicles, where have they been since completion and what have they been doing over the years?

There's the Sidewinder Dakota, the GMC Sierra road race truck, the dragster, the S10.

Also, what's the future for the industry in your mind? Can we maintain emissions equipment and functionality and still belt out 700+hp at the tires? Smoke free...
 
#18 · (Edited)
Many years back you guys got into the diesel motor sports side of things rose up to gain some records and then vanished without a trace per say. What made you guys decided to come back out and play and to the capacity that you are? How many events are you planning to attend? I understand the reason for the challenge but why do you insist that the people that you challenged have to come to you when they are pretty much on the other side of the country? Will you guys be competing heads up with the other racers? Why don't you sale the same products you guys have designed and bolted up to your race vehicles IE your rail, dakota , s10 for some examples I have looked on your website can find intakes and intercoolers and that is about it.
 
#19 ·
One warning, that's all you get. This is NOT a call-out thread, period. If you have a legit question, ask it.

If you have laundry to be aired for whatever reason (something along the lines of "waaaah Banks wouldn't race my buddy waaaaah") save it. We don't care.

And one last warning...calling out staff will be you swinging your own hammer. Capisce?
 
#20 ·
i know next to nothing about this but ran into a guy a few days ago who was using rods in jars of water hooked to his batteries and a tube going into his intake on his gasser ranger.

do you have any links to documentation on how your system function and its performance specs/cost?
 
#25 ·
I'm assuming he was attempting to do HHO electrolysis. I had a hippy science teacher in high school who kept trying to do this. Basically, you split water into hydrogen and oxygen gasses, then attempt to use those as a supplemental fuel
 
#23 · (Edited)
When will products developed and used for the Banks racing program be available for sale to the public?

What is the future of the Banks racing program beyond the NHRDA event in California?
 
#24 ·
How did this thread get so far off track about water methanol? I'm very interested in knowing more about it. Start with what application it can be used on? I see a computer, when I see a computer I usually think, "will not work with my 12 valve." So will it work with a 12 valve? How does it work? Is it the type it occasionally injects some water/meth when EGT's are high or is it constantly injecting it to improve MPG? Do you have some real world number from a dyno on what kind of improvements you will see?........Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical but I don't think there is a performance product made that doesn't claim 2-3 mpg savings with very few actually delivering. I'd like to see a real world results from a spectrum of diesel types not just brands (XXX fuel savings on a ford, chevy and dodge). Staring with an IDI engine, then a non computer engine like the 12 valve, then common rail engine, then a brand new piezo super computer/emission trucks. Common sense tells me it will have similar result from similar engines............Do all this with favorable results you have my business.
 
#61 ·
We just completed a full round of testing of our Straight-Shot system (with Double-Shot option) on a 1996 12-valve truck. You will see some detailed results from this project in print in the near future, but I can tell you that the gains were pretty significant. Again setting aside conversations about gasoline applications, use in diesel vehicles is pretty much unlimited, depending on your needs. I have already discussed the benefits of water alone for EGT mitigation, and the benefits of water-methanol for power addition. These benefits hold true for any turbo-diesel. We have not yet experimented with normally aspirated diesel, but we have with normally aspirated gasoline with some surprisingly positive results. The control methods are the key to applying the system to any diesel. In most cases, the preferred reference for injection control is intake manifold pressure, but we could also choose to control based on throttle position or EGT, or a combination of one of the first two with EGT. In the case of your 12-valve, I would recommend you use our Straight-Shot controller with the built-in MAP sensor. With this setup, you have all the electronic sensors you need right in the control unit. If you are interested in using it to inject water-methanol, but still want to make sure that your EGT stays in check, all you need to do is add the optional thermocouple. With that combination, the Straight-Shot will add water-methanol as intake manifold pressure rises and limit the addition of the fluid as EGT reaches your setpoint. In the recent test that I mentioned, we used the Straight-Shot in conjunction with our PowerPack and gained 150 HP and 365 lb-ft of torque with an EGT equal to stock. We have tested numerous other vehicle and engine configurations with a wide range of results. In one case we measured an increase of 175 HP at the flywheel on a Duramax LBZ.
 
#26 ·
So I've heard of guys running 50/50 and guys running 75/25 meth to water(mostly race applications) and then a few guys running 100% water when towing, what is the benefit of running meth all the time? Besides fuel mileage and lower EGT's.....
 
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#60 ·
While we are on the subject of bad information, particularly related to EGTs, let’s address the claim that using water-methanol can lower EGTs. Remember that we have already established that methanol is a fuel, and as such it contributes to the cylinder pressure when burned. One of the byproducts of the combustion process is HEAT. This is ALWAYS the case! One of the reasons that some manufacturer’s claim lower EGTs with water-methanol is because they do rapid acceleration testing that does not subject the vehicle to fully loaded conditions for a sustained period of time. When we do power testing on the dyno, we load the vehicle and hold it at a given RPM until the engine and all of its components are heat soaked. Under these conditions, using a 50/50 mix of water-methanol will result in an increase of EGT, plain and simple. Using lower blends, such as 75(water)/25(methanol), you may find a balance point for your particular application where the water cooling and the methanol burning balance in such a way as to net an equal EGT with a moderate increase in power.

I generally do not recommend a mix of greater than 50% methanol. This is primarily because the 50/50 blend with water allows the water to serve as a flammability inhibiter. You do not want any possibility of a flammable fuel being exposed to heated underhood components. As you increase the percentage of methanol above 50%, you increase its flammability without significant gains in performance. Racing changes the picture a bit, but I would recommend improved fuel lines and more attention to the safety aspects if using a higher blend. On the street, the benefit of running a water methanol blend is the same as any power adder… more power when you want it, less (diesel) fuel consumption when cruising.
 
#27 ·
Yes that is what he was doing. How does this system differ?

sent from Samsung potato
 
#29 ·
I have a daily driver that I would like to get more power and throttle response out of, but at the same time I want my truck to run clean and cool and I want to be able to tow and play with it. I plan to buy new injectors and a new turbo but I'm not sure which injectors would be best. I'm trying to understand injector technology better so I can make the right decision for me. From what I've read, for two injectors with comparable flow rates, the one with the greater number of smaller orifices (i.e., 7 hole) will be better suited for a daily driver whereas the one with the lesser number of larger orifices (i.e., 5 hole) will be better for performance applications. The greater atomization from the smaller orifices would result in less smoke, better throttle response, and quicker spooling owing to the faster mixing and burn rate. In a higher boost engine the larger droplets from the larger orifices would maximize droplet momentum to compensate for the high boost environment leading to better mixing and burning. Thus each design has its relative advantages and disadvantages. This has been debated by all the internet know-it-alls on multiple forums but I would be curious to see what somebody with real world knowledge and experience like you has to say on this issue.
 
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#30 ·
I have run Banks Big Hoss bundle w/ six gun tuner since '07 accumulating over 200K miles. All is well except for going from PDA to IQ & now running IQ 2.16.
Question is that Banks has box tune programming focused on stock trucks with stock components. Will Banks ever offer data logging & custom tuning for customers that modify their trucks? Also, can I disconnect the Six Gun wiring harness to Crank/Cam/FRP & just use the IQ from OBII connector for gauges?
 
#32 ·
I have the same Question! What's needed to put the six gun into monitor only mode? I've asked Tech Support and they say running at level 1 will result in pass through. This is hard to believe because without it plugged up the wastegate opens at 25 psi. Plugged in and level 1 is no wastegate... so its doing something... Can we run it as a monitor with thermocouple and power to the unit only?
 
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#33 ·
The key advantages of water meth are that it lowers IAT, increases density and allows for a more complete burn at lower temperatures, resulting in less NOx and DPM. All these add up to more power and efficiency. Because of the complete burn you get lower EGT.
Because of this process the DPF should fill much less quickly, but it will still fill. If you have a system that monitors EGT and adds flow to compensate, thus lowering it, how does this affect REGEN. It would seem that the W/M Injection would be fighting the REGEN cycle, which requires very high EGT. Is this the case, and if so is an excessive amount of fluid injected... essentially wasting W/M during the REGEN cycle.

If you are able to reduce DPM and NOx sufficiently would it be possible to create a lean enough tune that aggressive use of W/M could replace DPF, NOx filters and DEF. It seems that this would be the way to go as W/M is cheaper than DEF and adds rather than reduces power like NOx and DP Filters.

Thanks
 
#80 ·
The Straight-Shot controller allows for EGT control adjustment from 800° to 1600° in increments of 50°. This allows enough range for users who want to measure EGT post turbo. Remember that DPF regen happens under two sets of conditions; passive and active. Passive regen happens when the inlet temperature to the DPF is sufficient to begin the combustion process in the DPF. If memory serves correctly, this is around 500-600°. But if load conditions aren’t sufficient to achieve those temperatures (or in this case if the temperatures are artificially suppressed by water injection), then when the DPF reaches a certain stage of restriction, active regen is initiated. This is when the ECU commands additional fuel delivery during the exhaust stroke to deliver fuel to the DPF to initiate regen activity. Active regen would be unaffected by water injection since the fuel is injected after the combustion process in the cylinder. Even so, only the most aggressive settings for EGT control would stand a chance of interfering with passive regen, and even then it is unlikely to be an issue.
 
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