Fuel problem wont start - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-25-2011, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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Fuel problem wont start

95 12 valve
first simple question then start to finish of project so far
should the primer valve get hard after the air is out of system?

son traded Chevy gas with over 300,000 on it for 95 Cummings.
leaked oil badly
thought front gear casing seal
removed and found crack on the rear of gear case. removed gears and gear case. heli arced crack and replaced put back together. started truck drove exactly half mile died.
fuel gauge did not work thought he ran out of fuel. put 5 gallons in and started priming 200+ pumps later still wont start.
replaced filter and primed still wont start
cracked injectors while cranking. get fluid thru in even squirts. still no start
no fuel [pressure gauge.
replaced lift/ transfer pump went thru bleeding process and still no start
read owners manual talked about a pump in the tank. dropped tank removed fuel module. Surprise no pump DUH diesels. don't have one in tank.
found loose cap on module found fuel supply line rusted thru. found bottom filter on module almost closed from sludge. cleaned filters replaced lines front to back both supply and return. tightened cap. still no start
removed fuel heater, have not found a supply house with large enough hose to replace short section from pre filter to pump but bought new clamps that tighten down and hose looks good anyway. still no start.
oh after replacing all of these items primed and bubbles came out of screw for several pumps till I had a straight stream of fuel squirting out. still no start
sprayed starting fluid in and it starts and runs until out of fluid. I know BAD! but that tells me the timing is good and no internal problems, I think??
I have checked operation of fuel shut down solenoid it works properly. the rubber boot is gone but still goes up and down as described and measures the 2.6 inches.
any help would be great. I do know that when I replace fuel filter on my Dura-Max and pump the primer the primer gets to tight to push once primed.
so I am thinking we still have a air leak somewhere, and air leaks only happen from fuel tank to lift pump. IDEAS??????

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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-25-2011, 08:12 PM
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If you're getting bubble free fuel out of the bleed screw when pumping the primer you probably don't have an air leak.
Try pressurizing the fuel tank, 10 psi max, with a blow gun wrapped in a rag while someone else tries to start it.
Make sure the batteries are fully charged.
The engine can sound like it's turning over fast enough but may need just a hair more to fire.

Bill
'95 2500 4wd auto
'95 3500 5 speed heavy hauler
Stock for one day
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-25-2011, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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I will try that tomorrow Bill. in for the night now. I have a charger hooked upto it to keep batteries charged. it does start with starting fluid in the intake. but dies after the starting fluid burns off. I get solid fuel from bleed valve but i can hear and feel vibration on the fuel return line at the injection pump when I am priming it. if that helps solve anything. I plan on buying a fuel gauge tomorrow and testing pressure also
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-25-2011, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
i can hear and feel vibration on the fuel return line at the injection pump when I am priming it.
That's fuel passing though the overflow valve.
If the air trick doesn't work you'll have to loosen the front three injector lines at the injector and crank the engine until bubble free fuel appears.
Retighten the lines and crank with lots of throttle. It should start and run poorly but will pull out of it.

Bill
'95 2500 4wd auto
'95 3500 5 speed heavy hauler
Stock for one day
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-25-2011, 08:55 PM
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Do not use starting fluid unless the intake air grid heater is shut down. Instead of glow plugs cummins used an air intake heater. It glows hot heating the intake air and could blow up when exposed to starting fluid.

1997 3500 club cab 3.54 gears towing & camper pkg. Still stock with a built transmission at 120k. 4" exhaust, 4kgsk, and exhaust brake waiting for installation. 37337 upgrade. Still need ideas for improvements for hauling 15k fifth wheel.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-26-2011, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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thanks for the warning country boy. it is shut down besides its warmer than 60 so it does not kick on anyway.

at Bill
If the Timing is not right on the truck can it still start and run a few seconds on starting fluid?
still does not start. I even done all 6 injectors took lots of cranking but eventually there was no air coming out.
sprayed starting fluid in and she starts and runs till out of starting fluid. when it starts with the starting fluid it puts out tons of smoke.
I guess I am at timing I think. if you read the story of my son getting this truck we pulled the gears to repair rear gear case housing. when I pulled the gear for the injection pump I made sure the shaft did not move dont think i could have moved it if I wanted. there was no key on the shaft even though there was a spot for one. so when I put it back together we just installed the gear back the way it was with out the key. it went on tight took a lot of beating the gear on. started truck and drove half mile when it died. or ran out of fuel I dont know. Son says after he put 5 gallons in and still did not start he spayed starting fluid in started it and drove almost back the half mile. then they pulled it the rest of the way.
So from you response and some other I have read on Forum I know I have repaired all kinds of current and future issues. I called to see what someone setting the timing would cost $300 ouch. I read how to do it and believe pretty easy I think I can do it so I am going to buy the dial indicator and give it a shot if you guys say that even tho the truck runs with starting fluid it could still be timing.
I guess let me re phrase that
If the Timing is not right on the truck can it still start and run a few seconds on starting fluid?
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-26-2011, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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I just started it on the starting fluid again and was able to keep it running as long as I was pumping the pedal. it smoked heavy but ran and rpms stayed between 1500 and 2000. I think I seen some flame come out of the stack after it ran for 20 secs or so. I though it might get better keep it running for a good 45 sec to a min and let off the pedal so it died.

any help or suggestions would be great.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-26-2011, 10:48 AM
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Judging by it ran prior and doesn't now id take off the timing cover again and make sure everything is timed correctly cause it doesn't seem like it is to me. Also re time ur injection pump back to stock or close to just to help rule out any funkiness with it.

2004.5 3500 4x4 NV5600, PDR Cam, ARP 425s, industrial injection 60 horse injectors, Raptor 100 fuel pump, DIY 2micron fuel filter system with big line upgrade, HE351 over S475,more brewing
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-26-2011, 11:46 AM
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I agree, the timing has slipped.

Bill
'95 2500 4wd auto
'95 3500 5 speed heavy hauler
Stock for one day
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-27-2011, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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wow tried to buy items to time it, just the dial indicator is over 400 the DV socket is 50 so i called a place to see how much for them to time, if I load and take it to them $300.00.
thanks guys for the help this is a good forum
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-27-2011, 10:07 AM
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Take a pair of vice grips and pinch off the fuel return hose. It's the small one going from the engine back to the tank. You can often reach it from under the truck where it goes down along the firewall. Pinch that one off and try to start it. If the truck suddenly starts and runs fine, replace the defective overflow valve. I recommend the tork tech adjustable one for about $50. If it does not start, you haven't lost anything.

Edit: If it's not the overflow valve, then it's probably retarded timing like these guys say. If so, you don't necessarily have to buy or even borrow the full timing tool set. Jeff Garmon pointed out to a bunch of us a couple weeks ago that on many trucks, the width of the FLAT part of the crank position sensor is 7 degrees of timing if you rotate the engine with the gear busted loose from the pump. In other words, if you pop the gear off the injection pump, make a mark on the right side of the flat part I just mentioned, then rotate the engine backward (counterclockwise if you're standing in front of the truck) till the mark is lined up with the left side of the flat part of the sensor, then reinstall the pump gear, you will have just advanced the timing 7 degrees. This holds true if your damper is the same diameter as the one in Jeff's example. If not, it'll be a little more or less than 7 degrees. What I would do if I were you is this:

Try the overflow valve test. If pinching that hose does not let it start, then beg/borrow/steal the tool to pop the gear off the pump shaft, and pop it off. (You do not have to pull the timing cover, you can do it by removing the oil fill tube. Just don't drop the nut or washer when you do!) Turn the engine back 1/2 or 3/4 the width of the flat part on the sensor, and reinstall the gear after religiously cleaning the pump shaft and inside of the gear with brake cleaner so that both are operating room clean. Torque the hell out of the nut, and try starting it again.

Hopefully it's the overflow valve, but with you having taken everything apart, I'm leaning toward timing.

'98 12v 2wd dually, SB DD, Detroit locker, 64/65/13 htb2, CPP 7x10's, 3kgsk, bhaf, 19*, 50 lbs boost

Last edited by v8440; 10-27-2011 at 10:15 AM.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-27-2011, 12:37 PM
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You gotta have a DV socket. Here's where I got mine:

Click > Pure Diesel Power

The barring tool is nice, not absolutely necessary, but nice to have:

Click > Cummins Engine Barring Tool 5.9L 6.7L 3824591

I picked up a dial indicator from NAPA for around $45. It is standard and not metric, so you will have to convert the numbers as they are in MM's in the timing instructions.

You can use an oil drain plug for a dial indicator holder. The threads are correct to screw right into the IP. I drilled a hole through the top, threaded it to 10-24 threads and screwed a 1" #10 machine screw in it and used that to hold the indicator perfectly snug. If you have the stock plug in your pan now, replace it with this one and use your old plug as the dial holder:

Click > FUMOTO FG7B OIL DRAIN VALVE - 22MM ('94-'01)-Dodge Cummins Diesel Truck Accessories – Geno’s Garage

You already have a gear puller from working on the front case.

You can get all this for less than $150 and play with the timing all you want.

'96 Dodge 3500,KDP killed, boost-pyro-trans temp, not stock anymore
'01 Dodge 2500 4X4, EC, LB, 6 speed, FP-pyro-boost,
'97 Chevrolet Suburban, K1500, 4.10 gears
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