Timing housing oil leak not KDP - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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Timing housing oil leak not KDP

I am trying to find out how many hours it actually takes to pull the timing gear housing to replace the gasket behind the housing. Is this really a 30 hour job? I noticed that the lowest bolt is missing but I cannot just put in the bolt without taking off the balancer? I do not know if it is broke off in the block or if it is the main cause of the severe oil leak.

I had one individual tell me to just clean it really well and silicone the outside of the housing. This does not seem like the way to fix it.

The odometer says there is 315k on the motor, if this is a 30 hour job, should I just pull the motor and have the whole motor overhauled?

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 11:53 AM
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Clarify if you need to remove the entire gearcase or just the front cover.

Removing the front cover to replace the crank seal, tab the KDP, etc, is like a 4 hour job.

Removing the entire gearcase requires everything the front cover does as well as pulling the cam, and I can see a shop wanting to charge 30 hours for it. Using some tricks not in the manual (that I personally am not familiar enough with to articulate them to you) it can be done in ~16 hours at a moderate pace. I know a guy who rushed through it and was able to do it in ~12 hours.

Front cover/gearcase bolts vibrate loose 99% of the time and never break off in the block on their own. It's very easy to run a bolt in there and see if it threads in all the way. Plug your ESN into Cummins Quickserve to get a part number or bolt length if you want to replace it with a generic bolt.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickBrennan View Post
I am trying to find out how many hours it actually takes to pull the timing gear housing to replace the gasket behind the housing. Is this really a 30 hour job? I noticed that the lowest bolt is missing but I cannot just put in the bolt without taking off the balancer? I do not know if it is broke off in the block or if it is the main cause of the severe oil leak.

I had one individual tell me to just clean it really well and silicone the outside of the housing. This does not seem like the way to fix it.

The odometer says there is 315k on the motor, if this is a 30 hour job, should I just pull the motor and have the whole motor overhauled?
The only diesel tech around me that I trust quoted me $3500 ish for this job, so I'd say 30 hours is in the ballpark with all of the right tools lined up.

I will be doing this job at the end of March. There are really 2 places that the gasket tends to leak...one location is easily fixed by running a bead of RTV or similar in the crack between the housing and the block, the other...well the other leak requires the big job. It's usually a leak behind the fuel pump (drivers side...behind the CP3 for me). You cannot access that location to lay a bead in there.

If it's leak is originating on the passenger side, pull front end parts to expose timing cover. Pull water pump. There is a spot on the timing housing that basically starts high and then drops diagonally down towards the passenger side right next to the the water pump. That's where the most common leak is because of the gap between the bolts that hold the timing housing to the block is pretty large. The gasket has room to break down and fail in that location. If that's your source, many many have just jammed some rtv in that spot and been leak free for years.

You do not need to pull the entire motor. There are many write-ups on how to attack it. But basically in a nutshell, you need to pull all the front end parts off (including draining fluid, upper and lower radiator crossmember (I will be using this method for the lower: https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/23167226-post2.html). Then you pull the timing cover (remember you'll need a new crank seal or speedi sleeve or similar if your crank is worn). Then it's move to the top of the engine to start removing the things needed to get to be able to hold the tappets in place (the dowel rod method). Once those are in place, you can remove the cam. For me I need to take the CP3 gear off as well, then I can pull the timing gear housing.

I am not going to be using a gasket though. I'm going to use "The Right Stuff" gasketmaker between the timing housing and the block. My buddy did a 5.9/6.7 engine merge with a donor 2017 6.7 and they don't use a gasket in that location anymore, just gasketmaker. I'm also going to drop my oil pan when I do this and take it as an opportunity to remove the gasket and just using "The Right Stuff" for this interface between pan and block as well! I've already done the oil pan once and the cork gasket for that is garbage IMO.

It's a big job, not overly hard, just a lot of time consuming steps.

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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I have the bolt, I pulled another out to match it. It is the entire housing that I need to take off. I heard I needed to pull the Cam But I do not think I have the expertise to do that.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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It leaks on both sides, Passenger and Driver and it leaks a lot. I would estimate a half gallon of oil every 250 miles. There is not a lot of blow by out of the crank case hose so I think the rings are decent. However I hate to put 3k into a motor just to have a bearing go out or rings right after I do it. Trying to decide what is best to do.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 12:25 PM
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krashDH is talking about a 3rd-Gen. There's enough different on 3rd-Gens that I wouldn't assume most of that is accurate for a 2nd-Gen.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Mine is a 97 Gen 2.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 12:46 PM
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krashDH is talking about a 3rd-Gen. There's enough different on 3rd-Gens that I wouldn't assume most of that is accurate for a 2nd-Gen.
Most of the info I got was cobbled together from people that have done it on 2nd Gens. The same steps apply if you need to remove the gear housing regardless. That's why I didn't go into finite detail about each step because there will be a couple of little things different here and there, but the same high level principal of removal applies to both.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 01:09 PM
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Right, but you don't have to remove the vacuum/power steering pump or the injection pump on a 12v because they have support brackets off the block that will hold them in place from the rear. That alone saves a lot of time and hassle.

Stuff about the lower core support is also irrelevant.

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickBrennan View Post
I am trying to find out how many hours it actually takes to pull the timing gear housing to replace the gasket behind the housing. Is this really a 30 hour job? I noticed that the lowest bolt is missing but I cannot just put in the bolt without taking off the balancer? I do not know if it is broke off in the block or if it is the main cause of the severe oil leak.

I had one individual tell me to just clean it really well and silicone the outside of the housing. This does not seem like the way to fix it.

The odometer says there is 315k on the motor, if this is a 30 hour job, should I just pull the motor and have the whole motor overhauled?
I think 10-15 hours of actual work is more accurate if you aren't taking on any 'side projects' (though add some 'wait time' for sealant to cure). Enough stuff is coming off though, where there's a number of little things to possibly do/clean/paint while you've got everything apart. With the radiator/intercooler out and the gear case off, you have real good access to just about everything in the engine compartment and front suspension.

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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 07:59 PM
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Before I became more knowledgeable and confident about engine repair I had the inner gasket replaced by a shop. With all the right tools it was an all day job and part of the next day for a mechanic and a helper who had done it before quite a few times. While they were working on my truck I was cleaning the radiator of bugs and dirt and watching the procedure. I was in the 300k range when that happened. Rebuilding the engine never crossed my mind.

I recommend you try the RTV first. By removing the vacuum/power steering pump you can easily access the drivers side for cleaning and application. The alternator is fairly easy as well.

With all that said, mine was a nuisance leak. A half gallon every 250 miles sounds to me like the KDP got you or every bolt on the gear case is loose. Damage from the KDP will require replacing the gear case. If that is the case just stick with a gasket. The right stuff is for amateurs.

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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 09:12 PM
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I did it when I p-pumped my old 24v. Pulling the cam the first time is a little scary. I would definitely tackle it again and I would pull the p-pump and do a tappet cover gasket, might as well put in a new cam bearing while itís out.

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