Governor Springs for towing. - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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Governor Springs for towing.

I know this has been beaten to death, but ive found a lot of conflicting information.

Truck is my 1998 with 3.55s and 285/75/16 tires. Truck has the early low geared G56 and the 160 pump of a 95 automatic truck.

I have 12 cummins 3916691 60lb springs and an old Jacobs/cummins exhaust brake awaiting installation.

I use the truck for a daily driver and im starting to set it up to pull heavy with, i would like get a 5th wheel camper later on.

Anyway im getting off topic. Its no secret the 160 pumps are pretty much uselss past 2,000RPMs. I would like to get better response of the bottom end, and i dont really need to rev past 3,000.
Ive heard a few bits and pieces of people having starting issues and bad idle quality with some 4k springs.

I dont think i need 4ks, but another member suggested tightening the stock springs to get better power and slightly more RPMs.. Any thoughts? Thanks


Daily driver/ workhorse: 1994 2500SLT 4x4 Auto. Hewitt EGT, Boost, Trans gauges, Under hood Mech FP gauge, Trident fuel lines, Tork Tek OFV, Mag-Hytec DD Transmission Pan, Ford manual hub conversion, Diamond eye 4" turbo back, 37337 Upgrade. 260K

98 2500slt 4x4 ECLB moldy G56, south bend clutch 3rd gen trac bar , boxed control arms, billet tappet cover w/ dual breathers trident fuel lines, Tork Tek OFV, 4' stainless side dump with muffler 240k
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 11:06 AM
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I put the 4K springs in thinking, what can it hurt? but I haven’t put the 60 lb springs in the valves yet. I was thinking if I ever had a runaway, the 4K springs would trash the motor before I could get to it. I need to pull a set of springs or get the valve springs in.

I do have to keep an eye on it if I spin the tires as it climbs past 3k pretty easily.

Mine is stock 180 pump with free mods.

96 Ram 2500 4x4 automatic. Engine number: ??? Missing.
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 12:28 PM
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I guess I just got lucky, but I haven't had a single issue with my governor springs (and I bought cheap ones off Amazon that came from a Canadian seller).

I followed the instructions, put them in through the side, adjusted the top back to the same stem thread protrusion measurement, and they just worked. My idle was maybe 200 rpm higher afterward (as the instruction said would happen), so I adjusted the idle to where I wanted it and its been good to go ever since.

I hated the way the truck would just nose over when trying to merge onto the interstate with the stock springs, now it fuels high enough to make third gear useful (on an NV4500 anyway).
.
.

97 Extended cab 4x4, NV4500, gauges, valair single disc clutch, 4k gov springs, +60 lb valve springs, tool steel retainers & locks, homemade #10 plate, medium tension AFC spring & flat washers, 5x13 sac injectors, 055 DVs, stock turbo and manifold for now. Lifted on 37" tires and 4:10 gears.

Last edited by Antonm; 11-23-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanack6795 View Post
Its no secret the 160 pumps are pretty much uselss past 2,000RPMs.
This is a myth, they are only useless above 2k when they have stock governor springs and accordingly defuel at 2200. It is true that they are "less great" for making power up high due to the reversal-inhibiting cam, but the short plunger fill only starts to become an issue around 3500 rpm and cranking up the supply pressure can overcome a lot of that. I'll be happy to post dyno graphs of my 160 on my new motor once it's broken in. The injection pump will definitely be the limiting factor in producing power, but the odds are in my favor that it'll be the most power ever made with a 160 on this dyno.

Back on topic, tightening the stock governor springs can improve throttle response but will result in a soft idle, making it easier to stall a manual on takeoff.

There is one common brands out there of 3k/4k kits that have a spring pack imbalance which will result in a highly sensitive section of the rev range of 2-300 rpm, located somewhere between 1500 and 2000 rpm, when you install the kit at the recommended preload. Other brands (that I can't vouch for on here due to a potential conflict of interest) don't have this issue when ran as a 4k.

I would agree that actually being able to rev to 4000 rpm is of little use to most towing applications, however, you can run a 4k pack and loosen it to your liking to get the idle firmness and midrange throttle response you're looking for. Running a loose 4k, in my opinion, would be your best play here. Looser/less preload on the packs gives better idle firmness at the expense of throttle response and RPM ceiling. Tighter has the opposite effect. I have my old 3k/4k set (Pac with machined bases) in my pile of dead 5.9 parts I would be happy to send you for the cost of a beer and some postage.

Also, a lot of the complaints I think exist on forums and social media surrounding GSK installs boils down to installer error. It's very easy to get the packs imbalanced, especially if your pump's governor studs aren't flat on top. During my 5.9 build this spring, I went to install an experimental spring pack that should have functioned as a 4500-rpm kit (with the ceiling of a 5k but without the sketchy throttle response common to 5ks installed by home-gamers). When I had it on the truck, during the 5.9's extremely short life, it was doing all kinds of weird stuff. I blamed the packs, but it turned out to be an adjustment imbalance. I've installed dozens of these things and I still managed to mess it up on my own pump. I guess it can happen to anyone.

'95 2500 ECLB 4x4, 334k and paused due to epic transformation in progress.

Last edited by dauntless89; 11-23-2019 at 02:06 PM.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 06:54 PM
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I believe I have the same kit as Tony references, and I too have had great luck with them. On my tow pig I have them set loose, they idle great with plenty of control down low, and defuel around 3400-3500.

For a towing build, I would also heavily consider pushrods. After hearing a couple accounts, I installed a set too, and they lowered my towing EGT's considerably, around 150°. I can now hual at 40 psi and not crack 1250°.

Gandalf the Donkey Hauler - '96 2500 ECLB G56 SB-DD NP241CLD 3.54's, Firerings @ 160ftlb, PDD 4K GSK, PDD 5x18's @ 260, 025's, AFC Live, 28° Cogwheel, AFC Stop-Bolt, HO LP, TPP Manifold Blanket, P&P, Billet 56/64 HX35/GT45 W/Spring gate, EB, OBA, OBP, CC High Idle, BRA, Hotrod PS Pump, Str box brace, SuperSport Headlights, DIY GN Hitch, couple gauges. 733hp/1350tq at NWDC.

Shaughty - '95 2500 RCSB 2WD, PDD 850hp Trans, a lot less than 850hp.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy303 View Post
I believe I have the same kit as Tony references, and I too have had great luck with them. On my tow pig I have them set loose, they idle great with plenty of control down low, and defuel around 3400-3500.

For a towing build, I would also heavily consider pushrods. After hearing a couple accounts, I installed a set too, and they lowered my towing EGT's considerably, around 150°. I can now hual at 40 psi and not crack 1250°.
You have my attention... haha
Also i was referring to 160s not having a powerband past 2k due to the governor springs.

Can someone pm the gsk kit?

Daily driver/ workhorse: 1994 2500SLT 4x4 Auto. Hewitt EGT, Boost, Trans gauges, Under hood Mech FP gauge, Trident fuel lines, Tork Tek OFV, Mag-Hytec DD Transmission Pan, Ford manual hub conversion, Diamond eye 4" turbo back, 37337 Upgrade. 260K

98 2500slt 4x4 ECLB moldy G56, south bend clutch 3rd gen trac bar , boxed control arms, billet tappet cover w/ dual breathers trident fuel lines, Tork Tek OFV, 4' stainless side dump with muffler 240k
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-23-2019, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy303 View Post

For a towing build, I would also heavily consider pushrods. After hearing a couple accounts, I installed a set too, and they lowered my towing EGT's considerably, around 150°. I can now hual at 40 psi and not crack 1250°.
How do pushrods lower egt? Unless your well over 3k I doubt the factory ones have that much deflection or am I wrong?
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myother4x4isaCJ7 View Post
How do pushrods lower egt? Unless your well over 3k I doubt the factory ones have that much deflection or am I wrong?
That was my opinion on the matter as well, But then bought 6 pushrods for the exhaust valves to try and help top end power, and the EGT decrease was the main thing I noticed. That 150° number I got between 2000-2500rpm.

Gandalf the Donkey Hauler - '96 2500 ECLB G56 SB-DD NP241CLD 3.54's, Firerings @ 160ftlb, PDD 4K GSK, PDD 5x18's @ 260, 025's, AFC Live, 28° Cogwheel, AFC Stop-Bolt, HO LP, TPP Manifold Blanket, P&P, Billet 56/64 HX35/GT45 W/Spring gate, EB, OBA, OBP, CC High Idle, BRA, Hotrod PS Pump, Str box brace, SuperSport Headlights, DIY GN Hitch, couple gauges. 733hp/1350tq at NWDC.

Shaughty - '95 2500 RCSB 2WD, PDD 850hp Trans, a lot less than 850hp.
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dauntless89 View Post
I'll be happy to post dyno graphs of my 160 on my new motor once it's broken in. The injection pump will definitely be the limiting factor in producing power, but the odds are in my favor that it'll be the most power ever made with a 160 on this dyno.
How much are you hoping to make?

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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 12:56 PM
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The current standing record was set by the Junker at 725 or 750, I believe uncorrected and for sure fuel-only.

My goal is really just to get everything the pump has to offer, but it's really going to hinge on how healthy this pump is.

The new engine is a P-pump 6.7 12v. Wagler rods, 188/220, mildly ported Hamilton street head in what I'm calling a stage 1.9 configuration (Stage 2 valves with a 37.5-degree seat angle on the intakes), conical springs and upgraded pushrods, 3rd-gen Steed manifold and currently a small-turbine 362 SXE over a large-turbine 480 SXE. I'll be able to maintain however much fuel pressure I want, it's currently set up for 75 psi but I can turn it up past 120 if I wanted. 5x20 injectors, and I'll be experimenting with different DVs including some of the constant-pressure type. The plungers and barrels in the pump are really the weak link here.

'95 2500 ECLB 4x4, 334k and paused due to epic transformation in progress.
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-24-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myother4x4isaCJ7 View Post
How do pushrods lower egt? Unless your well over 3k I doubt the factory ones have that much deflection or am I wrong?

The springs we refer to as "60lb" springs are stock on most of the marine engines. I've heard (but not had a chance to confirm yet) that engines which use factory 60lb springs also have a different pushrod part number.

'95 2500 ECLB 4x4, 334k and paused due to epic transformation in progress.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 11-25-2019, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dauntless89 View Post
The current standing record was set by the Junker at 725 or 750, I believe uncorrected and for sure fuel-only.

My goal is really just to get everything the pump has to offer, but it's really going to hinge on how healthy this pump is.

The new engine is a P-pump 6.7 12v. Wagler rods, 188/220, mildly ported Hamilton street head in what I'm calling a stage 1.9 configuration (Stage 2 valves with a 37.5-degree seat angle on the intakes), conical springs and upgraded pushrods, 3rd-gen Steed manifold and currently a small-turbine 362 SXE over a large-turbine 480 SXE. I'll be able to maintain however much fuel pressure I want, it's currently set up for 75 psi but I can turn it up past 120 if I wanted. 5x20 injectors, and I'll be experimenting with different DVs including some of the constant-pressure type. The plungers and barrels in the pump are really the weak link here.
Sounds like quite a build, I would expect some pretty lofty numbers even with the 160hp pump. Like you’ve indicated, it’s not the slouch that many think it is. I didn’t have mine dyno’d at it’s peak with the 160hp pump, but it ran a 125.66 mph trap speed at just over 6000lbs. Based on hp calculators, it was mid 700s or so.

At that point, I was running the Comp DVs, 5x20s, a 62 over an 80 with an ETR-HO wheel. Still had the stock cam, the head had bowl work but no runner porting. Fuel pressure was in the 60s. Considering your’s is a 6.7 with a better head, I wouldn’t be surprised to see 800hp or more. Good luck, and keep us posted.

1995 4WD RCLB
10.66 sec, 128.93 mph
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