Next Level, 500 or so... - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
94-98 Performance Parts Discussion Discussion of Performance Parts For the 94-98 Trucks No Advertising ...NO ADVERTISING

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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
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Next Level, 500 or so...

The sig pretty much sums it up to date.
Planning ahead, adding a second turbo would make the most sense, which one?
What else?
Do I need 60lb springs? Should I pull the head and ring it, swap to better head bolts?
Got another 12v in case.


'98 Ram 3500 12v 4x4, triple disc/47RE, 3.54s, 275 70 17's, TT OFV, gauges, 16*, K27, 055, 5 x 0.011, AFC live, 3 pcs manifold, MBRP, AFE
'18 Promaster 1500 HT
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 07:30 AM
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You donít NEED to ring it, or stud it for 500. Plenty of people have gotten by on a retorque of the head bolts. That being said, Iím o-ringed and studded lol. But my end game is shy of 700. 60lb springs are a must though.


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1997 Cummins 2500; NV4500HD; SB DD; 315/75R16; Spohn Performance 3rd Gen Track Bar; 98-99HD Steering; 63/65/14; AFC Live; PDD 7mm DV's; 4 GSK; Mac Rack Plug;
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; PDD 5x.012; Colt Cam "Big Stick"; 60# Springs; PDD Stage 1 Push Rods; O-Ring Head; Head Studs; KDP Fix; Fluidampr; Boost/EGT/FP Gauges; BHAF

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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 07:34 PM
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Not sure if the 60# springs are a must. If you rev the crap out of your motor or have very high boost, then it is a must. I can get 40 lbs of boost, but it is not enough to open the intake valve befor the cam tells it to open. I don't know what point that happens though.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-14-2019, 07:59 PM
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It looks like 31 lbs of boost can blow open an intake valve on a 12v with 60 lbs springs (assuming no pressure in the cylinder). My p24v has smaller valves, so needs smaller springs to hold back the same pressure.
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
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Have been looking at Power Driven Diesel's twin turbo setup.
https://powerdrivendiesel.com/produc...94-2002-dodge/
Already have the K27, DV's, injectors and afc installed, getting 14 mpg and using a little oil, has been fun, is it wrong to want a little more?
Compound install video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=SrWM5JZHE7I
Looks like a second pan oil drain, new ex manifold and some fender trimming is required.

'98 Ram 3500 12v 4x4, triple disc/47RE, 3.54s, 275 70 17's, TT OFV, gauges, 16*, K27, 055, 5 x 0.011, AFC live, 3 pcs manifold, MBRP, AFE
'18 Promaster 1500 HT
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 08:43 PM
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That's a sweet looking setup. Someday I'll go there.
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 01:12 AM
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I would argue 60lb springs are stupid not to do for what they cost as far as protecting your engine up to 3800 rpm. ctmaybury, double-check your math. "60lb" springs have about 150 lbs on the seat in real life. A stock-size 12v intake valve has about 1.81 square inches of effective area on the back side. Roughly 82 psi to cancel out the spring. Stock-size exhaust valves have about 1.57 square inches of effective area on the back side, or 96 psi to cancel out the spring.

There really isn't anything to be concerned with as far as valves "blowing open."

During the exhaust stroke where the intake valve is most vulnerable, cylinder pressure is always going to be higher than boost pressure. Best (unrealistic) case scenario, it will drop completely to equilibrium with drive pressure, which will be higher than boost. Assume 1.2:1 for a rough conservative guess. If you're running 75 psi boost and 90 psi of drive pressure, there is still 15 psi of cylinder pressure exerting a closing force on the intake valve face, which is substantially larger (33%) than the effective area on the back side of the valve. That 90 psi in the cylinder vs 75 psi behind the valve results in a closing force of 215 lbs vs an opening force of 135 lbs from gas pressure on each side of the valve, or a net closure force of 80 lbs. In all reality, it is more accurate to say cylinder pressure closing the intake valve is thousands and then hundreds of psi on a decreasing curve until the end of the exhaust stroke.

During the intake stroke where the exhaust valve is most vulnerable, cylinder pressure is never going to be zero. There is some valve crossover and the flow of (pressurized) charge air into the cylinder begins before the exhaust valve has fully closed. The exhaust valve would start fluttering on the seat when drive pressure exceeded boost pressure by enough to cancel out the spring. Now, there is again a surface area bias which works in the favor of valve closure. On the exhaust valve, the surface area bias results in 35% more area on the valve face than on the back side. If you're maintaining the 1.5:1 ratio between drive pressure and boost the internet says you should, you'd have to be pushing a preposterous 485 psi of boost and 725 psi of drive pressure to reach a force equilibrium with the valve spring. 485 psi boost results in 1162 lbs of closure force on the valve face, and 725 psi of drive pressure results in 1312 lbs of opening force on the back side of the valve, or a net opening force of 150 lbs, which would effectively cancel out the spring. I don't know of any turbodiesel in history that's ran anywhere close to these levels of boost and drive pressure. Now, the pressure in the cylinder will not be 100% of boost as the engine is not 100% volumetrically efficient, but even if I were to drop the level of pressure that actually makes it into the cylinder to reflect a reasonable 80% VE, it would still take 285 psi of drive pressure to reach that equilibrium and cancel out the spring. Maintaining a healthy 1.5:1 ratio, this would mean a still outlandish 190 psi boost.

@OP, you don't need a manifold. They get flipped over. I would stud it. Skip the o-rings for now, but do them if you ever have the head off. 5x14s are a good injector for the K27/369 setup. I would advise upgraded locks and retainers with the 60lb springs as well. Stock ones have a tendency to pull through and drop valves over time.
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dauntless89 View Post
I would argue 60lb springs are stupid not to do for what they cost as far as protecting your engine up to 3800 rpm.
..........................................snip.... .................................................. ........
@OP, you don't need a manifold. They get flipped over. I would stud it. Skip the o-rings for now, but do them if you ever have the head off. 5x14s are a good injector for the K27/369 setup. I would advise upgraded locks and retainers with the 60lb springs as well. Stock ones have a tendency to pull through and drop valves over time.
Studs, you mean head bolts?
Would the motor run lean with 5x11's? Or just not enough fuel to reach full potential?
Need to figure out the oil usage, could it be because it is a huffing and a puffing a bit under full pedal?

'98 Ram 3500 12v 4x4, triple disc/47RE, 3.54s, 275 70 17's, TT OFV, gauges, 16*, K27, 055, 5 x 0.011, AFC live, 3 pcs manifold, MBRP, AFE
'18 Promaster 1500 HT
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 10:34 AM
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A 60 lb spring is more like 150 lbs of seat pressure. Thats good to know. It seemed way to close to the blow open point. K27/369 looks like a very fun setup. Wish I read up on he k27 before getting the super b. Looks like the smaller tubine would contribute nicely to quick spool.
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamCumminsRob View Post
Studs, you mean head bolts?
Would the motor run lean with 5x11's? Or just not enough fuel to reach full potential?
Need to figure out the oil usage, could it be because it is a huffing and a puffing a bit under full pedal?
I mean studs unless you have the ability to make the custom washers required for the socket-head bolts. They all need a chamfer on the ID and the ones that go between the valve covers need to be turned down so as not to cut the gaskets. Studs will help hold the gasket better than the socket caps, depends on how much of a gamble you want to take with blowing the gasket.

Diesels don't have the same lean/rich sensitivity that gas engines do. Gasoline, spends all it's time in normal operation between roughly 11.5 and 18:1. Leaner than 18:1, you start blowing holes in pistons and experience sporadic combustion. Richer than 11.5:1, and you start getting black smoke and retarded combustion. A clean-running diesel is always running lean. Off hand, I'm not sure what your "just driving around" AFR would be, probably between 30:1 and 50:1 I would guess. Stoich for a diesel is ~14.6:1, but visible emissions begin around 19:1. Basically, you will start hazing before you reach stoich. Diesel will make the best power between 14:1 and 10:1, but going richer than that will start to retard combustion. I have an AFR meter that I'm going to integrate into the datalogging setup I'll be running when my truck is back together.

A 5x11 will not give you any driveability issues, you'll just be limited to essentially the same horsepower a K27 can support all on it's lonesome. The 5x11s may not fuel hard enough to spool the 369. I'd argue there's almost no point installing the 369 with those injectors.

I'm not sure what your oil usage is about, I would check the obvious sources one by one. It would be a good idea to replace the valve stem seals when you do the valve springs. Mine were done when I tore down at 334k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctmaybury View Post
A 60 lb spring is more like 150 lbs of seat pressure. Thats good to know. It seemed way to close to the blow open point. K27/369 looks like a very fun setup. Wish I read up on he k27 before getting the super b. Looks like the smaller tubine would contribute nicely to quick spool.
"60lb" springs are a factory part for a 370 Marine engine. They got the name they have because one of the exhaust brake manufacturers started selling them as an upgrade, advertised as allowing an increase to 60psi of backpressure from the brake, where the stock springs could only handle about 30.

I ran a 57/65/.8 S300G on mine for a while before I took it apart last fall. This is what the Super B is based on, it was hands down the worst turbo I've ever had on my truck.

'95 2500 ECLB 4x4, 334k and paused due to epic transformation in progress.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 11:57 AM
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Time to put anothe turbo on the shelf.

I'd like to know about your data logger. I was going to design one for my truck to aid in dialing the afc, timing and comparing ic vs water to air cooler. Iat, egt, throttle position and boost pressure data points on .5 second intervals during a wot run might be very useful.
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 12:28 PM
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Before getting the super b, someone on the 24v section running it posted some nice dyno numbers. Greater than 400 hp and greater than 1000 ft lbs torque. The 2.5 to 1 ratio seemed impressive to me. I think his screen name is ganzey or something close to that. Apologies to ganzey if I got his name wrong. Not a lot of dyno numbers come in with that high a ratio.
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