Murphy Strikes again.. - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
89-93 Powertrain Discussion of components that are directly involved in the power production and all that is needed to get and keep the truck moving . Engine , Transmission Ect...NO ADVERTISING

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post #1 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Murphy Strikes again..

went to do VE rebuild on my #4 Dodge 12 valve and found one really neat deal.. the gov shaft apperantly leaked at one time (it came outa a truck with 123K miles on it!) and the previous owner loosened the gov shaft lock nut and pumped black RTV in there and tightened it back down...
Well I've got this engine in a "project" vehicle anyway I was figuring on about 1.5 hours (once its on the bench not getting it off the rig) had it on the bench at noon yesterday.... the DGK121 kit was short the Gov shaft o ring (doesn't pay to buy kits off ebay) the bore is 11.55mm well the closest in the kit mics out at 11.59mm on the shaft.. and I reassembled the pump with it mostly cause by now its midnight and I've ridden my Harley into town and tore my truck shop up looking for an o ring etc.. rode back home (this is sposed to be a project to help me relax and unwind by the way) 60 miles round trip and no luck decided use the 11.59mm

wake up this morning at 5 am thinking.. thats never going to work so pull the gov shaft enough to get to the o ring... not a single place in Tucson not one where ya can get any parts for a Bosch ve pump we have no diesel injection shops at all and the gas injection shops don't keep any parts they are all everyone of em simply parts swappers so now I gotta take a drive 120 miles to pickup 1 (one) O ring!! phoenix is the closest ya can get to any business that rebuilds diesel injection pumps and they don't do VE pumps cause they are too old and "obsolete" (like absolutely everything else on a 1st gen) so the only way they can help me is to actually compare the old dried out squared o ring (its squared as in form ed to the bore and the groove in shaft) unbelievable!!

Duramax is looking better all the time LOL

if I see Murphy I might needa park a 379 peterbilt on his azz... then backup a few times, havin 3 parts doner trucks does no good when it comes to VE pumps...

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post #2 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 05:44 PM
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Man that sucks!! I personally would have used the O-ring that was close....I've done it before with no issues. Maybe I'm a little too redneck....

1984/93 Dodge Crewcab, W350, 1 Ton SRW, long box, 370K Km's, hydroboost, 366 spring, fuel pin to deep side, 14cm housing, Piston LP, PS IC, Isspro Boost, Pyro and tach, NV4500, 29 spline NP205, 3.54's.
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post #3 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 06:57 PM
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His cousin is here in Aus.
Wednesday head about 20 miles to a bolt shop, came out hit the key and not a single fire. MMMM had changed the injectors about a week ago and thought 1 may have stuck and aired up the system. Called the other half to bring the old injectors and torque wrench.
Swapped them and still no start, had already gutted the run solenoid. Tow truck time.
Leave it sit for a day, came out bled the system again and fired right up.
and saw Diesel leaking from the throttle shaft. Bingo. Must have let air into the pump and caused the no start.
Had a seal kit plus the 366 spring so pulled the top and sorted it out. Could only get the odd fire out of it.. Top back off recheck it all and same story. Top off again, drain the pump right out and have a good look at the rotor and springs, nothing looking out of place. Button it back up and same story. Go cruise the computer looking for ideas, looks like Photo B has destroyed the older good threads on these. Had some basic pics of the operation that showed a leaf spring between the 2 levers that work the sliding sleev. Back out top off again and no sign there was ever a spring there but found a fixed pin (stop on the (start lever? - the one closest to the governor weights) that goes through a hole in the lever the governor spring attaches to. Found small , light compression spring and installed it. Fired right up. Today will re-fit the solenoid and need to turn the fuel screw up. then buy an airline ticket and send Murph's cousin somewhere.
If anyone has good pics of those levers I would appreciate a look.
Should have realised that it was not an air problem as it did not fire at all. Had the same thing happen about a year ago and just put it down to low fuel in the tank and parked on an incline, nose up. Also on an incline this time
Cheers Steve

86 F350 CC dually, RTO610, 3.32 final gears 93 5.9 (ex F600) basically stock,THD pin, Aftermarket AFC spring, re-set injectors. tuning in progress
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post #4 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-08-2019, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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yea it was a nice day for a bike ride... the guy at the diesel shop was so impressed that I'd ride my Harley 120 miles for 1 o ring that he gave me 3 for free.... got home and put it in and now no start.. I can't ID what this things mounted in cause yes Craig I know your watchin this forum hoping I'll slip up... suffice it to say it will be an extremely cool "toy" when its done I'm beatin my 93 up too much racin it so I'm building a dedicated 12 valve race rig BUT it will still be street legal got friends who keep tryin to figure out what I'm buildin so they know whats gonna be eatin their lunch next year at the track.... o.k keepin it in a shipping container with a tent at the door end might be a lil extreme but....
O.K this thing is a bare 12 valve I/C its outa a 92 it ran beutiful other than the ip leaking... there is no FSS its cable shutdown, I pulled the IP to do a rebuild set engine so woodrif key was at 12 o clock insteada TDC, the inside of the IP was absolutely spotless so no hard parts replaced ended up being a reseal job, and added 3800 rpm gov spring while it was apart took pics of EVERYTHING and reassembled, throttle shaft indexed exactly where it started, manual shutdown dead on getting drooling of fuel at each injector but no high pressure spray and it makes no effort to start.. not a cough nothing just spins nice and smooth... I'm at a loss for ideas, I used an inspection camera when put pump back in aimed right at the gears hole and the woodrif key was perectly centered in the slot, I did advance timing 1/8" before I tightened pump dowm and noticed that while my 2 reference marks (one on pump housing other on timing housing) showed exactly 1/8" the clean space alongside the pump from bottom bolt to the outside bolt was looking like 3/16" of shift (the engine was previously painted with pump in place so its pretty clear were it was before) any ideas?

read somewhere that people had trouble after they pulled and reinstalled the center port on head? the one ya check pump timing through?? it makes no sense to me but somewhere on the internet someone mentioned a crush sleeve.. wherever it was Thrashing cows you were on the same thread it was back a few years ago... any idea if any of that sounds familiar?

I'm sure its gotta be something really stupid I'm overlooking due to lack of sleep and chewin raw bugs all day... well better go do a patrol to see if needa unload any rocksalt in the direction of any of my "friends"
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post #5 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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shutdown lever is only moving about 1/4" but its stop screw shows it should have about 3/4" of travel any ideas what I f##ked up thats blocking it? or do I needa tear it all apart again?

edit; well as got no other first gens out here (I live 30 miles out in the desert west of Tucson, but have another house and my shop are in Tucson... and wendsday I ran a new to me Harley out here insteada my 93 so... only truck out here is the project and a Ford f550 super duty) so... I hadda ride into town to confirm what I suspected.. I screwed up the shutdown lever somehow... as the one on my 93 is easy to move and travels about an inch or so.. while the one on this pump only moves bout a quarter inch and is real stiff....

so anyone got any guesses the Fuel screw was put in AFTER the pump was fully assembled on the bench, however I did have to back out that gov. shaft and put the new o ring on it, is it possible something got outa alignment backing the shaft out? never took it full out just enough to expose the o ring...
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post #6 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 05:41 PM
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Sounds like maybe the control collar did not get seated properly on the ball off the bottom of the fulcrum lever. Had this happen to me once, spent days pulling my hair out trying to get it to fire....would sputter from time to time but would not get enough fuel pressure at the injectors to pop them off.

1984/93 Dodge Crewcab, W350, 1 Ton SRW, long box, 370K Km's, hydroboost, 366 spring, fuel pin to deep side, 14cm housing, Piston LP, PS IC, Isspro Boost, Pyro and tach, NV4500, 29 spline NP205, 3.54's.
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post #7 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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pics with top off, TC I do believe you are correct! pics look like same but are at slightly different angles with and without fuel... so once I pull pump again do I needa pull head too or can I pull GOV shaft and fulcrum bolts to reset it? I've got the special Bosch sockets etc..
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post #8 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 07:26 PM
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If you do open it up again could you check if there is a spring holding those 2 levers apart? I added a spring into mine and it runs but think the spring is too heavy, tends to have a bit of a lope at idle and now have a puff of smoke when starting.
My shut off lever has full travel but shuts the engine off before half travel. When looking at the lever on the inside it is about parallel to the face of the top cover.
Cheers Steve.

86 F350 CC dually, RTO610, 3.32 final gears 93 5.9 (ex F600) basically stock,THD pin, Aftermarket AFC spring, re-set injectors. tuning in progress
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post #9 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackduck59 View Post
If you do open it up again could you check if there is a spring holding those 2 levers apart? I added a spring into mine and it runs but think the spring is too heavy, tends to have a bit of a lope at idle and now have a puff of smoke when starting.
My shut off lever has full travel but shuts the engine off before half travel. When looking at the lever on the inside it is about parallel to the face of the top cover.
Cheers Steve.
got it on the bench now... just gonna take a break for a lil bit then pull it apart again... I cheated last time and left fulcrum in place after I realized there were no wear signs on anything I didn't feel I needed to pull it... guess that bit me in the AZZ huh...
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post #10 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 11:15 PM
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I think you can just remove the fulcrum bolts then pop the collar back onto the ball and slap it back together.

1984/93 Dodge Crewcab, W350, 1 Ton SRW, long box, 370K Km's, hydroboost, 366 spring, fuel pin to deep side, 14cm housing, Piston LP, PS IC, Isspro Boost, Pyro and tach, NV4500, 29 spline NP205, 3.54's.
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post #11 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 12:27 AM Thread Starter
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I think you can just remove the fulcrum bolts then pop the collar back onto the ball and slap it back together.
yea but ya know now with that Aussie asking questions I gotta take pictures too... he's clearly expectin alot from an American redneck... prolly gonna poke an eye out when that spring comes flippin outa there or something now that he's shipped Murphy's cousin to my house too...
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post #12 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-10-2019, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
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o.k Blackduck there is deffinetly NO SPRING between the piece the only spring involved are the two in the head and that tiny lil coil spring I made a point of gettin a pic of for ya.. anyone got any tips for gettin the fulcrum bolts back in? I've been tryin for 30 minutes and I don't have enough hands to line up both holes on both sides AND overcome the springs in the head AND opperate the socket to start the bolts in.... all while keepin the ball in its hole in the control (for ya'll that don't know that pic of the inside ya see the lil hole down there at the bottom? note the lil ball on the bottom of the fulcrum... its soooo much easier with the head off!!

edit; ok I'm gonna answer my own question for those who might attempt this... noooo it is not possible to reinstall the fulcrom without pulling the head absolutally not! there is no way for ya to get the parts aligned under the tension of the springs HOWEVER it only took me 5 minutes to do it once I accepted this reality.. maybe for Blackduck its possible after all he's upside down down there so gravity might work in his favor but for the rest of us up in the north... NOT POSSIBLE
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