Trans temp high limit - Page 3 - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
3rd Gen. Powertrain Discussion of components that are directly involved in the power production and all that is needed to get and keep the truck moving . Engine , Transmission Ect...NO ADVERTISING

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post #25 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 07:10 PM
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remember when you check your fluid level what temp it is? ATF expands as it gets hot and never stops. So if you check your level when it's just warm, or say 180 your fluid level @ 220-250 will be too high and you'll start making foam in the pan. This is very bad as you will introduce air into your passages and can raise the pressure to very, very high levels. So it's very important to keep the temps in check with more than enough cooling capacity.


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post #26 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 08:53 PM
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So if you check your level when it's just warm, or say 180 your fluid level @ 220-250 will be too high and you'll start making foam in the pan.
No, that is total myth. You MIGHT see a little thermal expansion from dead cold to operating temp but is much less than would ever take to get into rotating parts, MAYBE 1/3 of a quart if that much. Given a stock pan and dip stick for a 48RE one can safely run a 1.5 quarts over the full mark and never see any issues EVEN in park, with no fluid flow thru the TC which will be the high mark. It can be run 2 quarts over and never see an issue as long as it is in gear or circulating fluid in park. The marks come out just under the trans drive train with 2 quarts but a little mis-marking on the stick or not perfectly level will throw it off.

The only time I have ever seen an issue with foaming or too high fluid is simply operator error over filling or someone used the wrong stick that was 2-3 inches shorter than the correct one.

That said if one goes out does a lot of off level driving you can start spitting fluid out and foaming at STOCK levels, but, that is extreme circumstances they were never designed to operate in. On typical roads you will never see issues with levels even up the the ripples on the stick.

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post #27 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 09:37 PM
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Ok, well, I just noticed the level in mine checked cold but running in N @ below the low mark goes a little above the high mark when it gets around 180 ish. So what ever that volume is between the marks say 1 qt? Is how much it's expanding. I'm a little anal cause I spent a lot $$$ on my trans.

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post #28 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 09:44 AM
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Is it the gauge or the data stream (OEM sensor) that is off?
It is the temp sensor in the transducer that is inaccurate. It was never designed to give down-to-the-degree accurate readings for display on a digital monitor. It was designed to give relative temperature information to the PCM that is used to determine transmission control strategy. In all of my research, I typically see anywhere from 18-30 degrees of discrepancy, with the OE temp sensor (datastream information) always reading high.
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post #29 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 07:52 PM
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Neither bling nor illogical...

Pros for the cooler line location:

You will only see the full range of temperature at the front cooler line.

Normal temps when monitored at the front cooler line would fall in the range of about 140° F to 280° F

While watching the temp at the front cooler line you can instantly see the temp climb if you are pulling a heavy load. You can also see the temp fall almost instantly when you back off the throttle and you can also tell that the converter clutch was COMMANDED to lock, because the temp will drop instantly even when under heavy load when the converter clutch is COMMANDED to lock up.

The cons of this location, and one of the reasons I prefer the sender in the pan is because if we are monitoring the gauge this close your eyes are not on the road. This is a very active gauge when the sender is in the front cooler line. The sudden and extreme range of temps you will see may make one nervous even though they are well within the norm at this location.



Just the opposite is true if you install the gauge in one of the pressure ports of the transmission case. The fluid at any of these test ports is stagnant oil, once the oil gets to the test port it is at a dead end and is no longer circulating. At one of these locations we will really be reading the temp of the transmission case. At these locations it will take the longest to get a reading, and by the time you see a reading above 200° the converter temp was probably around 250° - 270° for quite some time because it takes a while for the heat to radiate into the case and once the fluid cools it will also take a while for the case temp to drop, back to that radiation thing again. At this location expect to see normal temps range from about 140° to 190° - if the temperature reaches above 200° I would find a place to pull over.



Pros for the pressure test port location would be ease of install and multiple locations to use.

Cons for these locations would be slow gauge reaction time and also we need to make sure the sensing tip of the sensor is not too long and bottoms out before you have the sensor tight. WE DO NOT RECOMMEND THESE LOCATIONS



We like to install the temp sender in the trans pan. The gauge will react quick enough to save the trans form overheating and yet the gauge won’t be so active that it would make one nervous about the temp extremes. The normal temp range you would see will be about 140° to 200°. If the trans temp gets above 200° F we would want to get the engine rpm above 1500, I will explain why. Fluid that is cold does not move very quickly through small passages, like the small passages in the valve body. Fluid that is too hot is hard to pump because it is too thin.

Fluid at 230° does not hurt the seals, gaskets, or clutches, but, because it is so thin it is hard for the pump to maintain enough flow so the valve body can maintain enough pressure in all the circuits. At approximately 200° in the trans pan even a good pump will have a hard time flowing enough fluid to satisfy all the circuits when the pump rpm (same as engine rpm) is below about 1,300 rpm. If the pump can’t maintain the volume of oil and the pressure regulator valve cannot maintain good pressure, the clutches and bands will slip. The cooler flow and pressure will also be lower and this will escalate the heating problem. This can easily be seen on the transmission dyno where we can monitor trans temp, clutch pressures, cooler pressures and volumes. Even with hot fluid above 200° these pressures and volumes come back to normal when we bring the rpm close to 1,500.

With 4.10 gears this is not really a problem because the engine rpm will not be around 1,500, but, with 3.54 gears you can easily be at 60 mph or lower with the converter locked up and the engine rpm could be around 1,500. All depending on tire diameter, of course.

For the above reasons alone we do not like to get the converter stall too low, lets say someone wants an extremely low stall converter and they are going to do a lot of snow plowing, the engine and customer may like the low rpm but if you are working things especially with the converter clutch unlocked at low rpm the pressure and cooler flow may suffer.



Hope this clears things up for you as far as sender locations are concerned

If you have any questions just call Dave @ 563-778-2719

“Dave Gorend”

Good advice for the average driver not trying to diagnose a transmission problem.
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post #30 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-22-2019, 08:44 PM
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Thank you for making my point for me, making some people "nervous" is the only valid reason ever used to recommend the pan. As for watching the gauge and not watching the road that is easy to solve dash, pillar, or over head mounts. You focus momentarily on a gauge but the road is always in view in those locations so it really does make an impact. Re posting opinions that someone else came up with is just rhetoric with no basis. If you would bother to have a discussion with Dave about locations, pros, cons, etc, you would find it is not so cut and dried. He would agree that the front cooler line is the place for a gauge if one wants to be truly pro-active and actually drive by the gauge.

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post #31 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 11:38 AM
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If you want to be entertained by an active gauge, and use it as a load indicator (that you could get from a number of different places), by all means, put your sensor on the hot line. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But if you want to know the sum total of your entire operating system; the heat generated by the converter juxtaposed against the effectiveness of your cooling system, the temperature of the fluid that your valve body and solenoids are operating in, as well as the temperature of the fluid you have "on tap" to cool your converter, then put the sender in the pan. It just simply gives you more information. This is my opinion, but it happens to be shared by pretty much everyone else that I know who does this stuff day in and day out.
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post #32 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dynamic View Post
If you want to be entertained by an active gauge, and use it as a load indicator (that you could get from a number of different places), by all means, put your sensor on the hot line. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But if you want to know the sum total of your entire operating system; the heat generated by the converter juxtaposed against the effectiveness of your cooling system, the temperature of the fluid that your valve body and solenoids are operating in, as well as the temperature of the fluid you have "on tap" to cool your converter, then put the sender in the pan. It just simply gives you more information. This is my opinion, but it happens to be shared by pretty much everyone else that I know who does this stuff day in and day out.
Good to know, that's where my trans builder told me to put mine, in the pan. Since I'm no trans expert, or even close to being one I sided with his advice. My Smarty touch also accesses info from somewhere internally also but is really, really slow to respond to changes in temp.

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post #33 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 12:59 PM
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It amounts to the same choice as an EGT probe location. We don't put the probe after the turbo for the very same reason, the readings are totally reactive and by the time a problem is indicated the problem has occurred.

If one stops and thinks about it, the probe in the cooler output will give the same info as the pan with added info of hard the TC is really working. The fluid for the TC comes from the pan first so it will be at whatever temp the pan is. In lockup mode you will see roughly a 10 degree rise from pan to cooler output line. That give the total heat soak in the trans, plus. When you do go into fluid coupling the extra temps are added on top of pan temps, at that point we simply do not care what the heat soak in the trans is we care about what is going to increase that and how fast and that will be temps in fluid coupling.

There is already a sensor in the pan that is going to alert when total temps hit critical, we want to stop that from ever happening and forcing a cool down period. Simple logic dictates that of we add gauges why not put them where they would do the most good or why add at all? I have NEVER had to pull over and let a transmission cool down and that includes heavy loads in stop and go traffic, slow grade climbs, and obnoxiously hot temps under high load.

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post #34 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 01:12 PM
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That all makes sense to me also, I'm just trying to set up my coolers so that the pan temps never see close to 200 deg even slow trail/rock crawling in 125 deg heat.

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post #35 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberusiam View Post
Thank you for making my point for me, making some people "nervous" is the only valid reason ever used to recommend the pan. As for watching the gauge and not watching the road that is easy to solve dash, pillar, or over head mounts. You focus momentarily on a gauge but the road is always in view in those locations so it really does make an impact. Re posting opinions that someone else came up with is just rhetoric with no basis. If you would bother to have a discussion with Dave about locations, pros, cons, etc, you would find it is not so cut and dried. He would agree that the front cooler line is the place for a gauge if one wants to be truly pro-active and actually drive by the gauge.
Congratulations your a three headed multitasking god. The average driver is not that gifted, not that pro-active and doesn’t need to know how hard the TC is working. I have a sensor in both locations and can switch between the two. I came to the same conclusion as Gorend and prefer the pan. I drive according to the terrain, keep the rpm’s above 1500 and the TC locked. That way I can enjoy the family and scenery.

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post #36 of 82 (permalink) Old 04-24-2019, 10:52 AM
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I can't imagine trying to drive by a gauge and get any enjoyment out of it, or being very safe at all. I'd rather just know I have plenty of cooling, and set an alarm @200 deg and forget about it. I have a AUX fan that kicks on @ 180 and off @ 160, but it won't see those temps very often with the set up I have hopefully.
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