Why do RAm 3500 or 4500 have more towing and payload than Ram 2500 when they have the - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Why do RAm 3500 or 4500 have more towing and payload than Ram 2500 when they have the

Why do RAm 3500 or 4500 have more towing and payload than Ram 2500 when they have the same 6.7 Cummins engine?

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post #2 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 03:52 PM
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Quite a few other differences - rear suspension and axle (for the DRW), for starters. More tire capacity with the DRW, or the 19.5s on the 4500. Etc...

Not sure on Ram, but on GM, you could get the 2500s with 20" wheels but only 18" on the 3500 SRW, due to tire ratings needed for the rear axle.

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post #3 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by n0arp View Post
Quite a few other differences - rear suspension and axle (for the DRW), for starters. More tire capacity with the DRW, or the 19.5s on the 4500. Etc...

Not sure on Ram, but on GM, you could get the 2500s with 20" wheels but only 18" on the 3500 SRW, due to tire ratings needed for the rear axle.
Generally, yes. the 18 vs 20" deal is not real though. Plenty of 20s with 3500lb+ capacity.
Otherwise, it's a good question by the OP and an age old topic and the short story is a 2500HD truck is basically the same as a 3500srw truck with a lower "stated" gvwr. Primary reason, so HD trucks can be used without being subject to regualtions for heavy trucks from a multitude of agencies, from DOTs, FHWA and local agencies to HOA's and turnpike/toll road authorities.

DRW 3500s and 4500s are a different story.

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post #4 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-16-2019, 04:18 PM
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Generally, yes. the 18 vs 20" deal is not real though. Plenty of 20s with 3500lb+ capacity.
You are correct about tires being available in the aftermarket, but not in the stock profile. Check it for yourself - GM only offers 18" wheels on the 3500 SRW trucks. If you check the stickers you will see that the RAWR is more than twice the load range for the stock 20" size. Disclaimer - this may have changed in the last couple of years, my info is up to date as of ~2017.

The stock size 18" tires are Goodyear SR-A LT265/70R18/E rated for 3527lbs.
The stock size 20" tires are Goodyear SR-A LT265/60R20/E rated for 3197lbs.

RAWR on the 2500HD is 6200lbs.
RAWR on the 3500HD is 7050lbs. 2x 3197lbs = 6395lbs, so the 20s do not work for the application.

Sure, they could have increased the size from the factory but the 18s and 20s have the same width and diameter (32.6 vs 32.5", or close enough, anyway), and thus can run the same running gear for all their SAE testing (plus not having multiple gear ratios to account for tire sizes, as all of the D/A rear ends were 3.73s in those model years).

Just increasing the tire size on the 20" wheel doesn't necessarily mean you are increasing the carrying capacity, either, since GM only rates the factory wheels for the OE tire load range. You will find a lot of 20" aftermarket wheels listed with ratings in the 3200lb range, but there are some that exist up to 3840lbs (last I checked). I used to run Method MR305 NV HD wheels with a 4500lb/wheel rating in 18" with oversized tires for load capacity. Also ran 19.5" Vision 81s for a while.

For whatever it's worth, I should have just bought a DRW years ago instead of fussing over wheel/tire and suspension modifications.

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post #5 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 02:36 AM
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Not sure why GM runs those wimpy LT265/60R20s.....but if they ran the LT285/60R20s like RAM uses, 20s would not be an issue for the GM 3500 SRWs.
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post #6 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 08:28 AM
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To get the lower regulatory costs of a 2500, what mods are needed to bring its capacity up to a SRW 3500? What is the approximate costs of those mods?

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post #7 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 10:44 AM
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My 2500 rawr is 6500 iirc not 6200. I believe my tires are rated for 3750 lbs. so 7500 combined. If 3500 is rated for 7000 then I would expect my 2500 to be just as capable only with coils and not leaf springs. 500lbs isnt that much more capacity.
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post #8 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 11:09 AM
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To get the lower regulatory costs of a 2500, what mods are needed to bring its capacity up to a SRW 3500? What is the approximate costs of those mods?
I don't think you can convert a 2500 to a true 3500, but maybe.

To start you would need the axle on most manufacturers, the size and spline is usually different to add strength (but not on the RAM, they are identical on SRW models). You would need a 3500 leaf pack in lieu of the coil springs. Ram has the most variances between its 2500 and 3500 models when compared with competitors. The 2018 Ram 2500 and 3500 single-rear-wheel pickups have the same maximum GCWR rating of 25,300 pounds; however, the maximum GVWR for the 2500 is 10,000 pounds and the maximum GVWR for the 3500 is 12,300 pounds. I think the 2019 is very similar. I would have to look that up. The biggest difference in the SRW models is the rear suspension, Transmission and HO engine.

You would also need the AISIN Transmission, correct gearing i.e. 3:73 or 4:10 not 3:42.

I am sure you already know, but the DOT will NOT care that you have modified the truck to haul more, they go by the sticker.
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post #9 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by n0arp View Post
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Originally Posted by Grit dog View Post
Generally, yes. the 18 vs 20" deal is not real though. Plenty of 20s with 3500lb+ capacity.
You are correct about tires being available in the aftermarket, but not in the stock profile. Check it for yourself - GM only offers 18" wheels on the 3500 SRW trucks. If you check the stickers you will see that the RAWR is more than twice the load range for the stock 20" size. Disclaimer - this may have changed in the last couple of years, my info is up to date as of ~2017.

The stock size 18" tires are Goodyear SR-A LT265/70R18/E rated for 3527lbs.
The stock size 20" tires are Goodyear SR-A LT265/60R20/E rated for 3197lbs.

RAWR on the 2500HD is 6200lbs.
RAWR on the 3500HD is 7050lbs. 2x 3197lbs = 6395lbs, so the 20s do not work for the application.

Sure, they could have increased the size from the factory but the 18s and 20s have the same width and diameter (32.6 vs 32.5", or close enough, anyway), and thus can run the same running gear for all their SAE testing (plus not having multiple gear ratios to account for tire sizes, as all of the D/A rear ends were 3.73s in those model years).

Just increasing the tire size on the 20" wheel doesn't necessarily mean you are increasing the carrying capacity, either, since GM only rates the factory wheels for the OE tire load range. You will find a lot of 20" aftermarket wheels listed with ratings in the 3200lb range, but there are some that exist up to 3840lbs (last I checked). I used to run Method MR305 NV HD wheels with a 4500lb/wheel rating in 18" with oversized tires for load capacity. Also ran 19.5" Vision 81s for a while.

For whatever it's worth, I should have just bought a DRW years ago instead of fussing over wheel/tire and suspension modifications.
Do you have a drw now? How does the drw feel compared to the 19.5s with a heavy load?

'19 Mega Cab 3500 HO SRW 4x4
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post #10 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jani Shugazer View Post
Why do RAm 3500 or 4500 have more towing and payload than Ram 2500 when they have the same 6.7 Cummins engine?
I think that the short answer is that the engine has nothing to do with how much payload a vehicle is rated for. If anything, a smaller (lighter) engine would increase it.

And if you go back to when tractor trailers had gas engines, you'll find that with much less hp and torque than we have in our pickups now, they could still pull 80,000 lbs.
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post #11 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 12:31 PM
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Do you have a drw now? How does the drw feel compared to the 19.5s with a heavy load?
My DRW feels good with 19.5s worked hard
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post #12 of 71 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 12:33 PM
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Do you have a drw now? How does the drw feel compared to the 19.5s with a heavy load?
The 19.5s help a ton but are not a substitute. I always read/heard that you get something like 85-90% of the lateral stability of a DRW with the 19.5s, but in my experience that remaining 10%-15% sure feels like a lot of improvement. It might be other factors - the longer wheelbase, and newer truck - but my Ram DRW feels way more planted when towing than my GM (2015.5 Chevrolet 2500 CCSB) ever did.

I will say that the two biggest improvements I made to my old truck regarding towing were the Kelderman rear suspension and the 19.5s. But the 19.5s had a lot of downsides - most of them traction related - though they were the glorified Michelin XDS2 line.

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