CP4 Thread - Page 19 - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
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post #217 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by the man in black View Post
So if its primarily water, why did the separator filter it out?
The separator can be inadequate in two cases: you pump a load of very bad diesel into your tank, unknowingly, that has a lot of water in it. It overwhelms the separator. The other case is that the separator is working, and over time fills up the bottom water storage capacity. The user never drains it, and it triggers a WIF light. By the time the user gets done driving, water has passed through the separator up to the high pressure pump. Only a tiny amount of water can cause rust which starts the failure process.

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Originally Posted by Brownmember View Post
Not sure if you had the joy of experiencing a failed CP4, but I did and I had my fuel tested...twice. CLEAN. I joined the lawsuit in California against GM and for some lawyers out of Texas...holy . I thought i researched the topic, nope. These guys knew everything...they knew it was not from water in my fuel before I told them. It is LACK OF LUBRICATION in diesel #2. Air in the pump plays and good part too though if presented.
Lack of lubrication is correct, but the reason isn't a design flaw in the pump. It is lack of lube due to water or some other foreign substance such as DEF or gasoline. Water strips the small amount of lube diesel fuel offers. It also creates rust when the pump isn't running, which then strips off and into the system when it restarts.

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Originally Posted by dieselenthusiast View Post
He seemed very confident in his knowledge. I don't know where he got his information, but his information was stated as fact and not opinion. He specifically said the lift pump in the Cummins doesn't pose the problems that Ford and GM had with their systems, which is why Ford and GM are being sued. Bosch has said and continues to say that their pumps are suitable for U.S. fuel.

The fact that we are not seeing failed CP4 pumps with the Cummins does give some support to the theory that Ram has better fuel delivery to the CP4. If the problem was fuel, then we should see just as many failures in the Cummins than we do with GM and Ford.

There is a reason why FCA/Cummins added the CP4 to their trucks. They would not have done so if they expected the same failure rate as GM and Ford. And there is a reason why GM and Ford discontinued the CP4.
Ford has not discontinued the CP4. Not whatsoever. GM discontinued in 2016. If it was so problematic for Ford after six years, they would have also switched suppliers. But they haven't, which means it isn't really a problem. Cummins chose to use the CP4 because it does everything for them that they need, and they likely have a good relationship with Bosch over the years supplying CP3 pumps, fuel injectors, control units, etc. It has zero to do with fuel supply. You can state something as fact all day but it doesn't make it true. If what he said was correct, how could ANY LML Duramax still be surviving today? None of them had a lift pump. And yet there are some with huge miles still operating perfectly today. In fact, there is a video on youtube of one for sale at a dealer...1,071,000 miles on the LML engine, no rebuilds, nothing major. Running fine. The original owner used it to hot shot RVs from manufacturer to dealers all over the country.

It's hard to imagine intelligent people really believing a company like Cummins can figure out how to make a CP4 never have a problem, while companies like GM and Ford never could after years with the same product.

And this thing with US vs Euro fuels...is completely ridiculous. Bosch entered into contracts with Ford and GM and others to supply the CP4 pump. If it really wasn't suitable for US diesel, Bosch would have informed them and Ford / GM / Others would have been well aware. Nobody wants ruined reputations, millions in warranty claims, and lawsuits. Furthermore, the CP4 is not quite an "off the shelf" pump supplied to different manufacturers. The CP4 on a Ford is customized for the Powerstroke 6.7. Ford and Bosch worked together on the final specs, no different than Bosch worked with GM and others. These units were tested, torn apart, re-spec'd, and retested. It isn't rocket science. Obviously, the pumps are not interchangeable. Ford is advertising 36k PSI from it's CP4 pump on the 2020 Powerstroke. RAM advertises 29k from its CP4 pump on the 2019 Cummins. Clearly tuned and customized differently.


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post #218 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by troverman View Post
Lack of lubrication is correct, but the reason isn't a design flaw in the pump. It is lack of lube due to water or some other foreign substance such as DEF or gasoline. Water strips the small amount of lube diesel fuel offers. It also creates rust when the pump isn't running, which then strips off and into the system when it restarts.
So you would argue that we haven't seen low mileage CP4 failures in the Cummins due to the fact that most engines are still low miles, right? Therefore, once we begin to see more 50K+ mile engines, we will also begin to see CP4 failures in the Cummins, right?

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Ford has not discontinued the CP4. Not whatsoever.
You are correct. I wonder if Ford made any changes in their fuel system to accommodate for the failures? Is there a consensus that GM has a significantly higher CP4 failure rate than Ford?


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GM discontinued in 2016. If it was so problematic for Ford after six years, they would have also switched suppliers. But they haven't, which means it isn't really a problem.
I agree 100%

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post #219 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by troverman View Post
Cummins chose to use the CP4 because it does everything for them that they need, and they likely have a good relationship with Bosch over the years supplying CP3 pumps, fuel injectors, control units, etc. It has zero to do with fuel supply.
Again, I agree 100%

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You can state something as fact all day but it doesn't make it true.
Just to be clear, I said the tech was discussing the issue as though he had inside knowledge. It came across to me that he was speaking along the lines of fact and not opinion.

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If what he said was correct, how could ANY LML Duramax still be surviving today? None of them had a lift pump.
From my understanding, the GM fuel delivery to the CP4 is inadequate under certain conditions. Again, I don't know what those conditions are and how often those conditions occur. I just know that he was convinced that the Cummins lift pump fuel system provided the necessary lubrication to keep the CP4 happy. In other words, the conditions would be far better with the Cummins resulting in much less failures compared to Ford and GM. Only time will tell, but so far, the Cummins CP4 seems to be holding up well. Keep in mind that there were low mileage CP4 failures on the GM.

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It's hard to imagine intelligent people really believing a company like Cummins can figure out how to make a CP4 never have a problem, while companies like GM and Ford never could after years with the same product.
It's very possible that engineers for Ram and Cummins were able to learn valuable lessons from Ford and GM. Or, maybe Ram/Cummins was already ahead of the game and knew what was going to work.

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post #220 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 04:57 PM
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So you would argue that we haven't seen low mileage CP4 failures in the Cummins due to the fact that most engines are still low miles, right? Therefore, once we begin to see more 50K+ mile engines, we will also begin to see CP4 failures in the Cummins, right?

You are correct. I wonder if Ford made any changes in their fuel system to accommodate for the failures? Is there a consensus that GM has a significantly higher CP4 failure rate than Ford?
Nobody really knows what percentage of high pressure fuel pumps failed on 2011-2016 LML Duramax trucks, nor what failure rate occurred on 2011-current Ford 6.7L Powerstroke trucks. All we can hypothesize is that it is a very small percentage. That hypothesis is based upon the fact that both Ford and GM continued to use the pump for at least 6 years (Ford is on year 9 now), and the fact that Ford continued to be the best-selling Heavy Duty truck manufacturer during the entire period. Ford Heavy Duty sales faltered during the 6.0L Powerstroke years which had high warranty claims on the engine. The 6.0L was only sold for 4.5 years.

What we do know is that Ford made at least two changes to the fuel system on the 6.7L diesel - in 2015, a special friction-reducing coating was applied to the cylinders of the CP4 pump; and in 2017 the lift pump was moved to the fuel tank and the primary chassis filter / separator was redesigned to be a much larger component. Coincidentally, both of these changes occurred on years Ford increased the output of the 6.7L diesel, so we don't really know if the changes were to support more output or increase reliability. Perhaps both. There is no evidence GM changed the design of its version of the CP4 at all, but I'm not an expert on the Duramax so I really don't know.

I don't have a feel if there were more CP4 failures on Ford or GM diesels. Ford sold a lot more, so it would stand to reason they would have more failures. I did read how GM was much more receptive to replacing fuel systems under warranty than Ford.

I do know based upon the Ford workshop manual the standard procedure for fuel system failures while the vehicle was under warranty. The technician was to first take a fuel sample in a glass jar and see if water was present. If not, he was to carefully disassemble the entire fuel system, from rails to pump to injectors and inspect for the presence of rust. If any rust or water was found, the warranty claim would be automatically denied. In fairness, the warranty does state that improper or contaminated fuel will void the warranty, and without water being in the system the pump would not have failed.

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post #221 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 05:26 PM
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Troverman, you and I posted at the exact same time, so be sure to read/comment to my post right before yours.

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Nobody really knows what percentage of high pressure fuel pumps failed on 2011-2016 LML Duramax trucks, nor what failure rate occurred on 2011-current Ford 6.7L Powerstroke trucks.
I agree. That piece of information would be helpful, though. If it ever goes to court, we might find out what the failure rate is.

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Originally Posted by troverman View Post
What we do know is that Ford made at least two changes to the fuel system on the 6.7L diesel - in 2015, a special friction-reducing coating was applied to the cylinders of the CP4 pump; and in 2017 the lift pump was moved to the fuel tank and the primary chassis filter / separator was redesigned to be a much larger component.
It would be interesting to know if the CP4 failure rate drops since making those changes.

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I don't have a feel if there were more CP4 failures on Ford or GM diesels. Ford sold a lot more, so it would stand to reason they would have more failures. I did read how GM was much more receptive to replacing fuel systems under warranty than Ford.
It seems to me that GM had more failures than Ford, especially considering that there were significantly more Fords sold than GM. But, I can't prove that.

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post #222 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 05:38 PM
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First off, before I forget...I like your avatar!

In the end, I'm not expecting widespread problems with any truck using the CP4. Actually, I do not know for certain the 2020 Super Duty is still even using the CP4, but I assume so.

Just for reference, Ford and RAM use a 30A dedicated fuse for the lift pump. To me, that is an indication they both have very similar lift pump output.

The Cummins engine filter is larger than the Ford engine filter. However, the Ford chassis filter is larger than the Cummins chassis filter. Filtration capability is likely a draw.
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post #223 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 06:59 PM
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First off, before I forget...I like your avatar!
I'm glad that you approve. I felt compelled to upload the avatar not long after Trump came to New Mexico and filled a 7,000 seated building with another estimated 6,000 people standing outside. It made me proud to be a New Mexican even though I was not born in New Mexico!

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Just for reference, Ford and RAM use a 30A dedicated fuse for the lift pump. To me, that is an indication they both have very similar lift pump output.
I bet Ford figured out the best solution to minimize CP4 failures.
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post #224 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 07:08 PM
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Great discussion! It gives me a little more confidence in my fuel system. That being said, I will be interested in the S&S Diesel Motorsports CP3 conversion. It also sounds like the stock lift pump on the RAM is adequate. I would like to know how it compares to the lift pump from Fleece.

These guys ( below ) will soon be releasing their fuel filter system for the 2019 RAM. Any thoughts as to whether an additional inline fuel filter might reduce the fuel flow or pressure to the engine mounted filter/pump? Any downside to this type of setup?

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post #225 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 09:31 PM
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If you dig a little deeper you'll find that lack of lubricant in diesel #2 here in the USA is the culprit. Europe doesn't have problems with the CP4 and diesel #1...which is where Bosch's CP4 was designed. Imagine that!
You run with that. I won't.
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post #226 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-06-2019, 08:39 AM
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If you dig a little deeper you'll find that lack of lubricant in diesel #2 here in the USA is the culprit. Europe doesn't have problems with the CP4 and diesel #1...which is where Bosch's CP4 was designed. Imagine that!
You run with that. I won't.
Ok. Good job.
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post #227 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-06-2019, 09:33 AM
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Well, they are just lawyers as someone pointed out above,.....
Remember, lawyers only BS when their lips are moving.................

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post #228 of 245 (permalink) Old 12-06-2019, 10:17 AM
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Why not just dump some 2 stroke oil in there and not worry about it?... I think I mentioned earlier (not sure if its in this thread or not) I did this with a DPF equipped TDI w/o issues over 50K + miles...

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