A Possible Water Pump Issue? - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
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Question A Possible Water Pump Issue?

I hope that this thread doesn't ruffle any feathers -- for being in the wrong forum board -- but the powertrain board does specify power-related discussions, so here goes...

I went into town last night in the truck and left it idling as I went into a place to quickly pick up a food order. When I came out, I immediately started hearing some of the weirdest sounds I ever heard in my life and, long story shortened (a little), I discovered that it was coming from my truck. The sounds range from a grinding sound to a howling sound to a slight knocking, so, needless to say, I immediately shut the engine down, grabbed some rags and checked the oil. The oil looks like its normal black self, which, for once, was comforting to me. I also grabbed the fan assembly and tested it for unusual movement -- there was nothing there.

As it was very dark in the parking lot, I couldn't give the engine bay a good visual, so I elected to slowly make the drive home and monitor all the gauges along the way -- and there were no unusual signs there, either. Today, on the other hand, I gave the engine a thorough visual and the only unusual thing I could see was some evidence of a bit of coolant being blown around. There also seems to be a slow coolant leak under the front center of the engine bay, but it's raining here so I'm not going to swear to anything in that regard. In addition, there seems to be a black discoloration near the center of the fan assembly.

Having written all of that, the sound does seem to be coming from the front of the engine, which leads me back to the title of the thread: A Possible Water Pump Issue?

Has anyone reading this lost a water pump with under 50K miles? Has anyone experienced these strange sounds and, afterward, discovered a defective water pump?

Given all of the work that went into our truck last winter -- see the Complicated Issue thread -- I'd hate to go through the trouble of laying in the ice and the snow without reading a few words from the Cummins 6.7L folks first. Thank you for your time ~ B&W


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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 05:56 PM
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Your description of symptoms points to at lest a leaking WP seal and thus likely and-or eventual WP bearing failure. That said they also point to an potentially imminent catastrophic WP failure that could lead to even more damage. In other words and in my opinion, You should check the condition of the WP ASAP.

The Easiest way to check is to temporarily release tension on the serp belt and then spin the WP pulley by hand to check for either shaft play, roughness or looseness. I’d imagine with the noises that you heard you’ll find something wrong with the WP and you will be replacing it sooner then later.

Just my .02






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Originally Posted by B&W 2500 View Post
I hope that this thread doesn't ruffle any feathers -- for being in the wrong forum board -- but the powertrain board does specify power-related discussions, so here goes...

I went into town last night in the truck and left it idling as I went into a place to quickly pick up a food order. When I came out, I immediately started hearing some of the weirdest sounds I ever heard in my life and, long story shortened (a little), I discovered that it was coming from my truck. The sounds range from a grinding sound to a howling sound to a slight knocking, so, needless to say, I immediately shut the engine down, grabbed some rags and checked the oil. The oil looks like its normal black self, which, for once, was comforting to me. I also grabbed the fan assembly and tested it for unusual movement -- there was nothing there.

As it was very dark in the parking lot, I couldn't give the engine bay a good visual, so I elected to slowly make the drive home and monitor all the gauges along the way -- and there were no unusual signs there, either. Today, on the other hand, I gave the engine a thorough visual and the only unusual thing I could see was some evidence of a bit of coolant being blown around. There also seems to be a slow coolant leak under the front center of the engine bay, but it's raining here so I'm not going to swear to anything in that regard. In addition, there seems to be a black discoloration near the center of the fan assembly.

Having written all of that, the sound does seem to be coming from the front of the engine, which leads me back to the title of the thread: A Possible Water Pump Issue?

Has anyone reading this lost a water pump with under 50K miles? Has anyone experienced these strange sounds and, afterward, discovered a defective water pump?

Given all of the work that went into our truck last winter -- see the Complicated Issue thread -- I'd hate to go through the trouble of laying in the ice and the snow without reading a few words from the Cummins 6.7L folks first. Thank you for your time ~ B&W <img src="https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/popcorn.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Popcorn" class="inlineimg" />

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by B&W 2500 View Post
I hope that this thread doesn't ruffle any feathers -- for being in the wrong forum board -- but the powertrain board does specify power-related discussions, so here goes...

I went into town last night in the truck and left it idling as I went into a place to quickly pick up a food order. When I came out, I immediately started hearing some of the weirdest sounds I ever heard in my life and, long story shortened (a little), I discovered that it was coming from my truck. The sounds range from a grinding sound to a howling sound to a slight knocking, so, needless to say, I immediately shut the engine down, grabbed some rags and checked the oil. The oil looks like its normal black self, which, for once, was comforting to me. I also grabbed the fan assembly and tested it for unusual movement -- there was nothing there.

As it was very dark in the parking lot, I couldn't give the engine bay a good visual, so I elected to slowly make the drive home and monitor all the gauges along the way -- and there were no unusual signs there, either. Today, on the other hand, I gave the engine a thorough visual and the only unusual thing I could see was some evidence of a bit of coolant being blown around. There also seems to be a slow coolant leak under the front center of the engine bay, but it's raining here so I'm not going to swear to anything in that regard. In addition, there seems to be a black discoloration near the center of the fan assembly.

Having written all of that, the sound does seem to be coming from the front of the engine, which leads me back to the title of the thread: A Possible Water Pump Issue?

Has anyone reading this lost a water pump with under 50K miles? Has anyone experienced these strange sounds and, afterward, discovered a defective water pump?

Given all of the work that went into our truck last winter -- see the Complicated Issue thread -- I'd hate to go through the trouble of laying in the ice and the snow without reading a few words from the Cummins 6.7L folks first. Thank you for your time ~ B&W
Mine gave up at 55k. It was the worst howling I ever heard from a vehicle.

Greg
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seafish View Post
Your description of symptoms points to at lest a leaking WP seal and thus likely and-or eventual WP bearing failure. That said they also point to an potentially imminent catastrophic WP failure that could lead to even more damage. In other words and in my opinion, You should check the condition of the WP ASAP.

The Easiest way to check is to temporarily release tension on the serp belt and then spin the WP pulley by hand to check for either shaft play, roughness or looseness. Iíd imagine with the noises that you heard youíll find something wrong with the WP and you will be replacing it sooner then later.

Just my .02
seafish...... Your post is worth a whole lot more than $0.02 to me. I'm especially grateful for the testing procedure.

By the way. If you've ever replaced a water pump on a 4th generation 6.7L CTD, I'd appreciate any helpful hints or things to watch out for.

Thank you, brother.

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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Power247 View Post
Mine gave up at 55k. It was the worst howling I ever heard from a vehicle.

Greg
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2016 | Heartland Pioneer | DS310
Greg...... Yes, I'm now noticing an intermittent howling that will really turn your head. In fact, when that particular sound is made, the damn truck seems to be possessed.

If you changed the water pump on your 2012 yourself, I'd appreciate any help or hints you might be willing to share. Do you still have a good part number, for example?
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 05:25 PM
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Mine went at approx 55k miles, at first I thought for sure it was the flex plate, the sound really transmits throughout. I finally noticed the water pump pulley was way out of line with the belt. I released the belt tension and the water pump bearings were so bad the the pulley dropped like it was going to fall off. I still can't believe it was that bad and yet never leaked a drop of coolant out of the weep hole. I replaced it with an oem pump from Geno's and it's been fine ever since. It's an easy job and can be done w/out removing anything.
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Mine went at approx 55k miles, at first I thought for sure it was the flex plate, the sound really transmits throughout. I finally noticed the water pump pulley was way out of line with the belt. I released the belt tension and the water pump bearings were so bad the the pulley dropped like it was going to fall off. I still can't believe it was that bad and yet never leaked a drop of coolant out of the weep hole. I replaced it with an oem pump from Geno's and it's been fine ever since. It's an easy job and can be done w/out removing anything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xSb...ature=youtu.be
WOW!!!! now that is loose!

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Originally Posted by B&W 2500 View Post
Greg...... Yes, I'm now noticing an intermittent howling that will really turn your head. In fact, when that particular sound is made, the damn truck seems to be possessed.



If you changed the water pump on your 2012 yourself, I'd appreciate any help or hints you might be willing to share. Do you still have a good part number, for example?
Thankfully I got it to the dealership, they replace it under warranty.

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 10:09 AM
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Mine went out in glamorous fashion. Sheared the shaft at the impeller (but didnít separate or explode, thankyasweetbabyjesus!) presumably after the bearing seized. Shut the truck down when I got to work one of the few times Iíve ever seen the temp over 205, popped the hood and the water pump looked like one of those Italian fat baby fountains, steadily relieving itself out the weep hole.

I think the 4th gen truckís have a 2 piece fan shroud so YMMV, but on my 3rd gen I found it WAY easier to pull the fan shroud for room to work. Looking back I sure wish Iíd had the fan clutch wrench I now have - if you donít have one theyíre fairly cheap when Genos has them in stock and the exact size needed for our fan hub nut (I think a narrow 33mm or something). Woulda been WAY easier than pulling the hot side boost tube to get on the tensioner.

While itís out itís probably also a fantastic opportunity to flush your cooling system if youíve not done it yet. Iíve heard of folks running CLR, block flush specific (read: overpriced) stuff, parts store degreaser, dawn, etc. I ran one flush of purple power and one of powdered dishwasher detergent after a bottle of radiator flush solvent (system was full of stop-leak) and it worked great. Intercooler had a TON of grease in there.

Make sure your new pump has the gasket because sometimes one shows up in the box and sometimes not. Was at dodge parts a while back comparing a 3rd and 4th gen pump (maybe some minor differences but not which I recall currently) before checking Genos and some had the gasket in the box, some didnít.

Genos had an article from TDR a while back comparing the Gates to the Cummins water pumps. Personally I saw no discernible difference in construction between the two when I removed the OEM pump other than the Gates was ~$30 cheaper unless upgrading to one with a metal wheel and better bearing - but at that point youíre probably ok enough financially to have someone else do the messy work. Stocker went ~125k, Gates is currently at ~64k... if it lasts another 20k Iíll call it a wash for longevity-per-dollar...

Hope this helps! Good luck!


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Thumbs up Will you please elaborate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pozzinator View Post
....While it’s out it’s probably also a fantastic opportunity to flush your cooling system if you’ve not done it yet. I’ve heard of folks running CLR, block flush specific (read: overpriced) stuff, parts store degreaser, dawn, etc. I ran one flush of purple power and one of powdered dishwasher detergent after a bottle of radiator flush solvent (system was full of stop-leak) and it worked great. Intercooler had a TON of grease in there....

Hope this helps! Good luck!
El Pozz...... Great to hear from you, mon frere!

Are you saying that you flushed your cooling system three times? First flush with "radiator flush solvent," second flush with "Purple Power" and a third with "powdered dishwater detergent"? How much of each did you use? I'm sure that I've got this all wrong, so please set an old senile vet straight.

Bearing in mind that we're way too poor to pay FCA for one of those CTD trucks with the huge RAM logos all over them, please tell us what type of coolant you opted for after you were done flushing your cooling system. I've read all manner of garbled information about HOAT this and OAT that and, God help us, mixing the wrong types of coolant ... so, bearing in mind that we're still nursing our old 2012 megacab around, please add a few thoughts on the best coolant to use.

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A Possible Water Pump Issue?

Yep. Pulled the intercooler to replace the rad (sprung a leak, probably my fault, looked like the fan shroud rubbed it) with a mishimoto stock replacement rad, and noticed the lines were full of brownish sludge which felt distinctly not like scaling (which the iron in the block will still do). I think the photos are still on my radiator thread, recounting my incompetence with intercooler boots and the utter mess of oil film which flushed out of the intercooler after soaking it in purple power.

Before pulling the old IC (edit: RADIATOR) the leak had been steady enough (filling a 15qt drip pan in ~12hrs) that Iíd given up even putting distilled water in while waiting for the mishimoto rad to show up, so once I got shipment confirmed I dumped in a bottle of coolant system flush, drove it two round trips to work (~100 mi total), dumped in another bottle and drove two more shifts, then pulled the rad for the swap and flushed the block and lines with purple power. Used about half a dishwasher load of dishwasher detergent (powder) to do a final flush, rinsed it for several minutes with the thermostat removed (housing still mounted) and the lower rad hose pinched mostly closed. Also left the coolant filter off (replaced it) and the lines cracked so itíd flush the back of the head as well.

Did a bunch of sniffing and decided to not bite the bullet for $40-some a gallon for mama mopar HOAT-flavored koolaid, and just used zerex premixed lemon-lime faygo from the Wally World. MUCH cheaper and says compatible with FCA vehicles; I donít think itís as big an issue as I flushed the whole system tho, so itís not like anything was getting mixed. Ended up being about 5 gallons for a full topoff from 30psi vacuum after blowing it all (or at least mostly) out with compressed air and getting the coolant checker to say it was good to go.

Bought 8 gal for less than I could get 2 at the stealership... so now Iíve got 3 extra just chilling on the shelf collecting dust cuz my stupid self opened them all anticipating needing 7+ gal

Addendum: if you think you have to do a water pump, loose your belt and have a sniff at your tensioner and idler pulley too. While the belt is loose is a great time to scoot it around and look for cracks, as the belt is like $18 - almost not worth NOT doing since itíll be off anyway. The idler and tensioner are cheap and really easy to get at while youíre already in there for the pump as well, pretty sure I got everything from Genos (belt, Gates pump, idler, tensioner, and the fan clutch wrench) for ~$150ish. If you get belt squeak when it goes back together, saw a YouTube vid where the firepunk crew sprinkled some comet powdered cleaner on the belt down at the harmonic damper and it quieted the belt right up.


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Last edited by El Pozzinator; 02-14-2020 at 10:35 AM.
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 02-14-2020, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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Question Specialized Tools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pozzinator View Post
Yep. Pulled the intercooler to replace the rad (sprung a leak, probably my fault, looked like the fan shroud rubbed it) with a mishimoto stock replacement rad, and noticed the lines were full of brownish sludge which felt distinctly not like scaling (which the iron in the block will still do). I think the photos are still on my radiator thread, recounting my incompetence with intercooler boots and the utter mess of oil film which flushed out of the intercooler after soaking it in purple power.

Before pulling the old IC (edit: RADIATOR) the leak had been steady enough (filling a 15qt drip pan in ~12hrs) that I’d given up even putting distilled water in while waiting for the mishimoto rad to show up, so once I got shipment confirmed I dumped in a bottle of coolant system flush, drove it two round trips to work (~100 mi total), dumped in another bottle and drove two more shifts, then pulled the rad for the swap and flushed the block and lines with purple power. Used about half a dishwasher load of dishwasher detergent (powder) to do a final flush, rinsed it for several minutes with the thermostat removed (housing still mounted) and the lower rad hose pinched mostly closed. Also left the coolant filter off (replaced it) and the lines cracked so it’d flush the back of the head as well.

Did a bunch of sniffing and decided to not bite the bullet for $40-some a gallon for mama mopar HOAT-flavored koolaid, and just used zerex premixed lemon-lime faygo from the Wally World. MUCH cheaper and says compatible with FCA vehicles; I don’t think it’s as big an issue as I flushed the whole system tho, so it’s not like anything was getting mixed. Ended up being about 5 gallons for a full topoff from 30psi vacuum after blowing it all (or at least mostly) out with compressed air and getting the coolant checker to say it was good to go.

Bought 8 gal for less than I could get 2 at the stealership... so now I’ve got 3 extra just chilling on the shelf collecting dust cuz my stupid self opened them all anticipating needing 7+ gal

Addendum: if you think you have to do a water pump, loose your belt and have a sniff at your tensioner and idler pulley too. While the belt is loose is a great time to scoot it around and look for cracks, as the belt is like $18 - almost not worth NOT doing since it’ll be off anyway. The idler and tensioner are cheap and really easy to get at while you’re already in there for the pump as well, pretty sure I got everything from Genos (belt, Gates pump, idler, tensioner, and the fan clutch wrench) for ~$150ish. If you get belt squeak when it goes back together, saw a YouTube vid where the firepunk crew sprinkled some comet powdered cleaner on the belt down at the harmonic damper and it quieted the belt right up.
El Pozz...... Considering that we're still under 50K miles on the odometer -- and that we've never had a leak requiring any emergency additives (i.e., Bar's Leaks) -- would you still recommend that we go through this rigorous flush sequence? Loooong long ago, when we were still in Dixie, I added a flush treatment to my wife's car and, long story a bit shorter, the damn heater core developed a leak. Given the design of this particular vehicle, all was well: until you turned on the heater. I must've blocked it out of my mind, but my [new] wife had me remodeling the dog house for quite some time after that one. Not that I'm holding you to anything, but do you think that we necessarily need such a great flush job?

I'm also wondering if you did the belt work on your own? You must've read my mind, but Geno's already sent us the Cummins water pump (Part No. 5473238) and the Gates "Complete Serpentine Kit" (Part No. 90K-38285) ... and, for those just tuning in, this kit comes with a complete belt tensioner assembly, a new serrated belt pulley (not part of the belt tensioner assembly) and a Gates HD belt ... which leads me to another question: Did you use one of them new-fangled "Serpentine Belt Tension Tools" (Part No. WLMW84010) to do all of this work? I've watched a nice YT video where a young guy used a ratchet handle to loosen the belt on his 6.7L CTD, but this process required a "lovely assistant." I usually can't even interest an ugly assistant; hence, the questions. The length of the tool shown on the Geno's website suggests that it's intended for solo removing/installing the serpentine belt, so now I'm wondering if I screwed the pooch by not ordering it.

If I do end up ordering the aforementioned Serpentine Belt Tension Tool from Geno's, do you also recommend investing in a fan clutch wrench set? I noticed that you mentioned a fan tool in a prior post; hence, this question. I can still recall the nightmarish battle I had with the fan on our '98.5 24V 5.9L CTD, so, considering that you've obviously done extensive work on the front of your 6.7L, I'd be much obliged for your thoughts on these tool kits.

LINK TO SERPENTINE BELT TOOL KIT

LINK TO FAN TOOL SET

Have a good one down in Dixie

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