New trailer + new hitch + no adjustment on install = Carnage!

[DmnDvo]

Yesterday I picked up my new Open Range 399BHS



Got a 20K reese round-bar slider hitch installed by the dealer.

Get it all hooked up; one employee states "sitting a little high in the nose"...

Ask about lowering hitch one notch to level it out.

No reply. (in hindsight am glad didn't lower it anymore or the following would be MUCH worse)

Needed to make a tight turn in a parking lot. Got out unlocked slide arm, set it neutral, hit trailer brakes drove truck ahead to set it in back/turn position.
All is well... Make the turn. Get out reset slide arm to put back in tow position.

Here is where the OH $h!t occurs. Get out to reset hitch to tow position, look and low and behold my pinbox mount on trailer is embedded into plastic on top of tailgate!!!

Quickly hit slide arm, then trailer brakes, back up to set in tow, replace lock pin for slide and go swearing on down the road, but still enjoying the feel of how well the trailer pulls and how smooth truck is riding, etc...


Well the carnage went beyond my tailgate getting creased by the pin box mount!!!!



found THIS while adjusting truck's hitch down



adjusted pin arm first so this is why it is now 2" lower out of pinbox mount than was originally



the corner of the mount is what contacted the bedrail & tonnue rail.



Moved onto adjusting Reese hitch (will need to notch two plates to get to required height) and found....



and this is what it looks like from outside (hence had to get into box to notice)






I think I need some opinions on how to handle the "poor" installation/matching of my JUST purchased trailer and JUST installed hitch, before I contact dealer and lose it!!! Personally feel they EPICLY FAILED on completing the installation professionally since they never checked ANY clearances (one guy eyeballed a tape measure against trailer pin once), but nothing afterward to ensure nothing was going to contact or why trailer was sitting nose up when first hooked (and that was with NO air in the bags).

*seething*.........

[Haulin_Dutch]

I fail to see how it is the Dealer's fault that YOU didn't measure the Pin to Pin Box distance before you bought (or thought about buying) this Trailer, or test drive the Trailer around their Sales Lot checking for just such things BEFORE leaving.

You KNEW you had a Short Bed 4x4 with oversized Tires before you bought it, YOU saw that it was sitting LOW in the back (YES! Low in the Back, not High in the Front)...Why didn't you have them flip the Trailer Axles to raise up the Trailer? Why didn't you question them on the length of the Pin Box?

Granted, the Dealer should have advised you that you needed a different Trailer, or Pin Box configuration, or even an axle flip/lift kit for the Trailer...but dude, you gotta man up and take some responsability too!

Raise the back of the Trailer, get a shorter (front to rear, not height) Pin Box and motor on.

[Ram3500Dually]

That must have been an extended pinbox for it to have gotten into the side like that. I don't know why they keep on putting them on trailers, they cause more problems then they are worth....

[DmnDvo]

Originally Posted by Haulin_Dutch

I fail to see how it is the Dealer's fault that YOU didn't measure the Pin to Pin Box distance before you bought (or thought about buying) this Trailer, or test drive the Trailer around their Sales Lot checking for just such things BEFORE leaving.:

Yes I am a ROOKIE for 5th's. First one... I in NO way claimed to have all the answers, nor the experience. I have SOME knowledge.


The dealer took my order on the Reese hitch when we ordered the trailer Feb. 22nd. They (the trailer dealer) installed the hitch in my truck WHILE we got the trailer "walk-through" that morning.
So if you install a piece of epuipment you can just leave it at that? No culpability of IF its useable once you have?

There was a lengthy walk through on the trailers options, but I got a whopping 45 second run through on how to run the hitch.

You in no way feel that a "professional" installer should have checked Pin to pin box length? or pin box clearance? Or investigate when they themselves noted it was "low in the rear"!!!! And not just counted my money and sent me off in a "time bomb"???

Now that you have pointed out that pin box length is a serious issue here then I thank you. Now I know some of the WHY it occured other than height misalignment issues.

Originally Posted by Haulin_Dutch

You KNEW you had a Short Bed 4x4 with oversized Tires before you bought it, YOU saw that it was sitting LOW in the back (YES! Low in the Back, not High in the Front)...:

Yes I did and I ordered a 20K hitch with a slider [which dealer rep stated I shouldn't need a slider... Hell yes it does!!!!]. Overkill, but 18K didn't come in round bar slider. Better overrated than under isn't it?

I also installed airbags to keep from sagging and to ride more safely.

Oversize by 1.1 inch in total diameter (265-70r17 = 31.6" 285-70r17 = 32.7") . can air bags up higher, but aside the point....

The dealer knew from time I ordered trailer what was towing it, and I THOUGHT I was recieving a "Ready to go" trailer with an install of my ordered and purchased hitch for that trailer.

We got initial hook up and they noted rear low, then not another word... Here ya go out the door... no "watch for this"; no "do this; don't do that"... just "bye"!

Originally Posted by haulin_dutch

Why didn't you have them flip the Trailer Axles to raise up the Trailer? Why didn't you question them on the length of the Pin Box?

Certainly would have had I known there was a BIG problem. Or that those were even options.... I would have hoped they may have recommended it since they noticed something "not right"...
So yeah i am frustrated at lack of "schooling" too.

Originally Posted by Haulin_Dutch

Granted, the Dealer should have advised you that you needed a different Trailer, or Pin Box configuration, or even an axle flip/lift kit for the Trailer..

I think this was what I was asking in the first place.

Originally Posted by Haulin_Dutch

].but dude, you gotta man up and take some responsability too!:

I know I was driving it!

I was left with the impression that ALL WAS WELL....

SURPRISE!!!! I was already an hour away from the dealer when "incident" occurred on FIRST use of slider.

yes a fool and his money are soon parted, and I guess that I am the fool for NOT KNOWING!!!

Oh and I also know to find sympathy between $h!t and syphilis in the dictionary too.

Originally Posted by Haulin_Dutch

Raise the back of the Trailer, get a shorter (front to rear, not height) Pin Box and motor on.

thank you I intend on it. Do I feel the "dealer" should aid in such "required equipment" installation and purchase. Yes! Shoulda never got out the door without being "fitted" properly.

[Haulin_Dutch]

Originally Posted by DmnDvo

Yes I am a ROOKIE for 5th's. First one... I in NO way claimed to have all the answers, nor the experience. I have SOME knowledge.


The dealer took my order on the Reese hitch when we ordered the trailer Feb. 22nd. They (the trailer dealer) installed the hitch in my truck WHILE we got the trailer "walk-through" that morning.
So if you install a piece of epuipment you can just leave it at that? No culpability of IF its useable once you have?

There was a lengthy walk through on the trailers options, but I got a whopping 45 second run through on how to run the hitch.

You in no way feel that a "professional" installer should have checked Pin to pin box length? or pin box clearance? Or investigate when they themselves noted it was "low in the rear"!!!! And not just counted my money and sent me off in a "time bomb"???

WHOA!! The Hitch in the Truck is in no way your PROBLEM...The HITCH INSTALLER is not at fault, and if it takes more than 45 seconds to learn how to operate 2 levers, you should not have purchased such a big Trailer.

Originally Posted by DmnDvo

Now that you have pointed out that pin box length is a serious issue here then I thank you. Now I know some of the WHY it occured other than height misalignment issues.

Yes I did and I ordered a 20K hitch with a slider [which dealer rep stated I shouldn't need a slider... Hell yes it does!!!!]. Overkill, but 18K didn't come in round bar slider. Better overrated than under isn't it?

Two points; With the extened Pin Box, That was OBVIOUSLY on your "Order Sheet", NO you did NOT need a Slider (red flag #1)
and second, NO, Over-rated IS NOT always better...it adds un-needed weight to an already heavy load.

Originally Posted by DmnDvo

I also installed airbags to keep from sagging and to ride more safely.

Oversize by 1.1 inch in total diameter (265-70r17 = 31.6" 285-70r17 = 32.7") . can air bags up higher, but aside the point....

The dealer knew from time I ordered trailer what was towing it, and I THOUGHT I was recieving a "Ready to go" trailer with an install of my ordered and purchased hitch for that trailer.

We got initial hook up and they noted rear low, then not another word... Here ya go out the door... no "watch for this"; no "do this; don't do that"... just "bye"!

So you walk in, place an order for a Trailer, detailing EXACTLY what YOU WANT...and it is somehow THEIR responsability to make sure YOU didn't order the wrong thing?

Originally Posted by DmnDvo

Certainly would have had I known there was a BIG problem. Or that those were even options.... I would have hoped they may have recommended it since they noticed something "not right"...
So yeah i am frustrated at lack of "schooling" too.

I think this was what I was asking in the first place.




I know I was driving it!

I was left with the impression that ALL WAS WELL....

SURPRISE!!!! I was already an hour away from the dealer when "incident" occurred on FIRST use of slider.

Right, see below as to their obligation to "school" you (maybe assuming you were knowledgable, since you ORDERED what YOU WANTED), and I STILL can not wrap my head around you not driving around the Parking Lot to get the feel of it, since you were so inexperienced.

Originally Posted by DmnDvo

yes a fool and his money are soon parted, and I guess that I am the fool for NOT KNOWING!!!

Oh and I also know to find sympathy between $h!t and syphilis in the dictionary too.

thank you I intend on it. Do I feel the "dealer" should aid in such "required equipment" installation and purchase. Yes! Shoulda never got out the door without being "fitted" properly.

See the note (**NOTE) below on this subject, way toward the bottom.


Ok, bare with me for a few MORE moments, as I continue to play instigator ;
As I said before, they should have been more thorough in some aspects. I understand that as someone "new to 5th wheels", you do not know what you "don't know", and do not know 'what questions to ask' (The Dealer knew that too). If it was obvious to them, that you had no idea what you were doing, and that you could have harmed yourself or others, or caused significant damage to Property, they had a responsability (to their OWN Insurance Provider) to step up and say "Hey, Mr. X, I think maybe you should learn a bit more about this before you go motoring on down the road"...to-which, most "Mr. X's" would respond; "Oh non-sense, people tell me all the time how easy this is, I'll be just fine" (seen it a thousand times). Short of that, they didn't owe you a thing. It is NOT their responsability to "vet" every Purchaser...if they did, they would lose 80% of their sales.

As a former RV Dealer Service Manager, I'll let you in on a few secrets;
1. The Dealer is in business to make Money.
-a. They are NOT in business to educate you.
-b. They are NOT in business to prevent you from spending MORE money
--b1. in the form of "upselling"
--b2. or in the form of "non-warranty repairs"
2. The Customer is very rarely "Right", but with enough incentive, they may get their way.**
3. The exception to #2. is when a Customer WANTS to spend more money than they need to (18,000 lbs. Slider when they only need a 15,000 lbs. unit, etc.).
4. For Liability reasons, a Dealer (inclusive of Sales/Service/Parts/Cust.Service) will never suggest modifying a unit "outside" of what the Manufacture itself suggests.
5. For Liability reasons, a Dealer will never accept requests to modify a unit beyond what the Manufacture suggests.

Lets look at this a little differently. If you buy a new Sports Car (with a manual Transmission), and present a Driver's License (that you got testing in an Automatic Car), then get in an accident on the way home because you didn't know how to drive a Stick Shift...Is it the Dealer's fault? Did they have a responsability to teach you how to drive a Stick Shift? Did they have the responsability to NOT sell the Car to you? (Do they even have the Right to prevent you from buying a Car you don't know how to operate?)

You say yourself, that something didn't seem right, yet you drove away anyhow...You removed all their liability when you failed to DEMAND they correct the problem BEFORE you left, if you really felt something was not right. If you had DEMANDED that they "do something", and they refused, you might have some standing to go back on them (and they knew it...that's why they ignored you...waiting for YOU to DEMAND a correction). And I am still not understanding how you didn't think to take a few turns around their Parking Lot to "get the feel" of it before truckin on down the highway (that was pretty irresponsable on your part, seeing how you admit to being "new to 5th wheels").

**Note: If you go in screaming and hollering making threats and saying it is their fault, you will walk away very angry, and very much in the same position you are in...Be courteous, be kind, DO NOT ADMIT FAULT, but DO NOT ACCUSE. Ask to discuss the matter with the Sales Manager AND the Service Manager AND the General Manager, all together. CALMLY Explain your case, that you suggested at "walk-thru" that the Trailer seemed too low, and that you asked "so-and-so" about adjusting the Pin Box and/or Hitch Height, that employee "X" just kinda shrugged it off and acted like it was no big deal.


Now, if you made it all the way through my Post, and have not yet thrown your computer through a plate glass window, you just might be able to get them to take care of a lot of the Damage, and possibly incur all the cost for a new Pin Box and lifting the trailer (not extremely expensive compared to the trailer itself). They're going to p1ss you off WAYYY more than I just did, and the key is to remain CALM.

The problem with all this is that you went through the entire Purchasing process, and appearently never questioned the Salesman/woman about these issues. Did the Sales person know you were "clueless" about 5th wheel specific issues? Did they explain that this Unit had the extended pin box, and THAT was why the Rep said you didn't need the Slider? There has to be more to this story, and I truely hope that it is in your favor, because as much as I think you should hold yourself 100% responsable, it does appear that the Dealer MIGHT have been a little Shady...just don't "go there" immediately. If you can't get what you want being nice, THEN start to make threats, but do it as you're walking out of the Office, where OTHER Customers can and WILL hear you (THAT is what Dealers fear MOST...other lost sales, they got your money already, but if they don't keep you happy, you can cost them FUTURE sales...trust me, I've seen this a thousand times also.)

[DmnDvo]

I have made it through your whole post and I appreciate you taking the time to give me the "other side" of the situation. Precisely what I was needing be better able to be informed and know where they are coming from.

Am I POed - yes
Am I unreasonable - no
Can I remain calm - yes

And I am still not understanding how you didn't think to take a few turns around their Parking Lot to "get the feel" of it before truckin on down the highway (that was pretty irresponsable on your part, seeing how you admit to being "new to 5th wheels")

In this pic I am all the way across the lot and between two vehicles, there is 3 more trailers on "my" side and one directly ahead of my truck, behind is a chain link fence and concrete bullards. No where near enough room to "comfortably" make any turns.

If you go in screaming and hollering making threats and saying it is their fault, you will walk away very angry, and very much in the same position you are in...Be courteous, be kind, DO NOT ADMIT FAULT, but DO NOT ACCUSE. Ask to discuss the matter with the Sales Manager AND the Service Manager AND the General Manager, all together. CALMLY Explain your case, that you suggested at "walk-thru" that the Trailer seemed too low, and that you asked "so-and-so" about adjusting the Pin Box and/or Hitch Height, that employee "X" just kinda shrugged it off and acted like it was no big deal.

This is why I appreciate your response so much and why I posted here FIRST.
a) to learn more
b) to know thier position better
c) to figure WHY it occured
dd) it filled this request very well

Originally Posted by DmnDvo

I think I need some opinions on how to handle the "poor" installation/matching of my JUST purchased trailer and JUST installed hitch, before I contact dealer and lose it!!! Personally feel they EPICLY FAILED on completing the installation professionally since they never checked ANY clearances (one guy eyeballed a tape measure against trailer pin once), but nothing afterward to ensure nothing was going to contact or why trailer was sitting nose up when first hooked (and that was with NO air in the bags).

The problem with all this is that you went through the entire Purchasing process, and appearently never questioned the Salesman/woman about these issues. Did the Sales person know you were "clueless" about 5th wheel specific issues? Did they explain that this Unit had the extended pin box, and THAT was why the Rep said you didn't need the Slider?

Before order was placed I asked the parts guy on site his thoughts on necessary equipment like the hitch, how airbags help, but never got a word as to difference between a pin box and an extended pin box only a quick look at an air-ride pin box.

The parts lady (who took hitch order) figured it didn't need a slider due to shaping of front of trailer (recesses) IT does require it.

Was I adimant about it having an extended pinbox? NO didn't have a clue what it had for one, just that it wasn't air-ride equipped. Thats extent of my knowledge on that..
Thank you yet again for taking the time to set me on the right track of where the problem lies with my truck trailer set-up, and where the "miscommunications" occurred that lead to this "incident".

I am "kinda" glad it didn't occur in the parking lot as I feel I would have been chewin nickels and spittin nails.

I am calm, I know more, I need to know even more yet, and am now ready to head back to the dealer in a more reasonable mindset.

and since today IS Saturday and they stated they will be busy today I think it'll be a good time to have them want to hide me in the back and keep my wreck under the rug. lol

I don't expect full restitution, but I do want to know alot of why's, and "How can WE correct this?"

Thanks again for the opinion, perspective, time and response.

[Ram3500Dually]

Just so you have added ammunition, watch this video on extended pin boxes. The dealer was an idiot for selling it to you.

Extended King Pins? 5th Wheel Trailer & Short Bed Trucks - YouTube

Extended King Pins? 5th Wheel Trailer & Short Bed Trucks - YouTube

[DmnDvo]

Thanks Ram3500Dually. WILL be saving that one on my iphone for them to get a gander at IF needed.

And one more piece of my side of this is that "my" salesperson is the dealership owner! Less heads to go over at least.

[GAmes]

It appears that the only option you had was the air ride, which would put the pin in the same place as your extended hitch. I have pulled several trailers with air rides, and my opinion is they are well worth the money. But that doesn't solve you delimma. The extended hitch is required because of the placement of the box. It puts the pin just ahead of the nose of the trailer, which is standard. It was designed for a standard box, not one with an aftermarket cover. Why it slid back far enough to hit the tailgate is an installation error, and that is something the installer is responsible for. The video is proof you need the slider hitch. With a non-extended pin box the trailer would hit the cab sooner.

The only real damage to the bed itself from what I can see is the tailgate. The cover hardware can be bent back into place and the offending hitch can be trimmed or raised up a notch. I would flip the axles either way. I'm not sure what I would do about the slider hitch install. Maybe try to get some reimbursement for the damaged tailgate, then remove the gate while towing.

[DmnDvo]

Just got back from the dealership.

Axle flip isn't an option since they are spring over axles already.
The bed rail is pushed down noticably underneath the tonneau rail.
Yes a shorter pin box would reduce the amount of turning radius I had while hitch is in tow position.

They are going to cover either the 3" lift block kit and install for the trailer or the repairs for the truck whichever is greater (owners own words). And then once thats complete we'll adjust pinbox, and hitch to get everything "fitted properly".

They did try to push for a sidewinder pin box for a bit, but I knew that was another $1200 out of my pocket, and wouldn't alieviate the tail down problem. But overall I am satified with how I was treated and how we worked out a solution/agreement.

Technician and I discussed the options and looked at the angles (like I wish we had the first time), and both agreed lifting trailer (as Haulin_Dutch noted -- Thanks again ) was best option for getting any length of pin box over the bedrails, and tailgate.

I am glad I had some time to cool off, and you guys to point out what NEEDED to be done.

Thanks!!!

[Haulin_Dutch]

I'm glad you were able to see the true intent of my Post, and happy to have been able to provide insight.

I want to thank you, for posting your results. Many times, folks get resolution, but don't share their full experience.

[tcclindy]

Originally Posted by Haulin_Dutch

I fail to see how it is the Dealer's fault that YOU didn't measure the Pin to Pin Box distance before you bought (or thought about buying) this Trailer, or test drive the Trailer around their Sales Lot checking for just such things BEFORE leaving.

You KNEW you had a Short Bed 4x4 with oversized Tires before you bought it, YOU saw that it was sitting LOW in the back (YES! Low in the Back, not High in the Front)...Why didn't you have them flip the Trailer Axles to raise up the Trailer? Why didn't you question them on the length of the Pin Box?

Granted, the Dealer should have advised you that you needed a different Trailer, or Pin Box configuration, or even an axle flip/lift kit for the Trailer...but dude, you gotta man up and take some responsability too!

Raise the back of the Trailer, get a shorter (front to rear, not height) Pin Box and motor on.

Really? When I bought my first trailer, the first thing the salesmen said was lets go look at your truck see what fit yor truck, that's what a reputable dealer does.
Dealer should not have allowed you leave the lot like that, that's complete bs.