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Old 02-21-2011, 09:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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First, knowing when to shift, and knowing how to shift, are two different decision-sets that have to be integrated for best results; this is what separates truck drivers from steering wheel holders. More gears make it "easier" (more selections in pace setting) when a higher skill set is a given, but the principle of being smooth overrides it even in these little trucks. The optimum power range is what one has to work within; to stay within. Road + Load.

Actual road speed doesn't mean much. Car drivers believe it so (in this era), and those new to trucks from cars (all of which are overpowered) has not sufficient training or habits when driving a loaded truck or towing, say, above 7k with a bit of terrain. The automatic answer seems to be spend money to "improve" an already outstanding truck. Road speed is only a final check to see how well one has done to transition smoothly from one state to another; from stop to rolling; to manage traffic and weather conditions, etc. It ain't cruise control and Baby Goo-Goo . . . .

Were this business of shifting itself music we would say "It's the spaces between the notes that matter" as concerns handling the man trans.

Second, coming down from road speed is only lastly a question of brakes.

For that reason I agree with the above that short miles on a brake set is inexcusable. Too fast for conditions is the leading contributory cause of accidents. Doesn't know how to use brakes. Guys who can't shift or who can't use brakes properly are not employees valued by fleet operators. They're an expense versus being an asset.

So, for all the guys who whine about bad fuel mileage, "well, I bought it to use as a truck", I say, then quit driving it like a car.

If you can find an objective test or report that shows that these high-perf, high-bling brake rotors and lining compounds are better than premium Dodge factory pieces, then post the links, please. The trade-offs between compounds might be worth exploring. I doubt that to be so with rotors.

.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:01 PM   #26 (permalink)
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^^^^^ Excellent post with a lot of good advice. Worth re-reading.
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:06 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
First, knowing when to shift, and knowing how to shift, are two different decision-sets that have to be integrated for best results; this is what separates truck drivers from steering wheel holders. More gears make it "easier" (more selections in pace setting) when a higher skill set is a given, but the principle of being smooth overrides it even in these little trucks. The optimum power range is what one has to work within; to stay within. Road + Load.

Actual road speed doesn't mean much. Car drivers believe it so (in this era), and those new to trucks from cars (all of which are overpowered) has not sufficient training or habits when driving a loaded truck or towing, say, above 7k with a bit of terrain. The automatic answer seems to be spend money to "improve" an already outstanding truck. Road speed is only a final check to see how well one has done to transition smoothly from one state to another; from stop to rolling; to manage traffic and weather conditions, etc. It ain't cruise control and Baby Goo-Goo . . . .

Were this business of shifting itself music we would say "It's the spaces between the notes that matter" as concerns handling the man trans.

Second, coming down from road speed is only lastly a question of brakes.

For that reason I agree with the above that short miles on a brake set is inexcusable. Too fast for conditions is the leading contributory cause of accidents. Doesn't know how to use brakes. Guys who can't shift or who can't use brakes properly are not employees valued by fleet operators. They're an expense versus being an asset.

So, for all the guys who whine about bad fuel mileage, "well, I bought it to use as a truck", I say, then quit driving it like a car.

If you can find an objective test or report that shows that these high-perf, high-bling brake rotors and lining compounds are better than premium Dodge factory pieces, then post the links, please. The trade-offs between compounds might be worth exploring. I doubt that to be so with rotors.

.
Well said. I like the analogy part that people are coming from cars over to trucks and are expecting their trucks to drive like cars.....no matter how much weight is behind them. To add to that, I dont think everyone needs go through the commercial license training to be able to drive on the road (even though I think getting a drivers license is tooooo easy) but I definitely think that everyone who has a drivers license should have to get behind the wheel of a semi tractor trailer before they ever get any drivers license.
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:27 PM   #28 (permalink)
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If you can find an objective test or report that shows that these high-perf, high-bling brake rotors and lining compounds are better than premium Dodge factory pieces, then post the links, please. The trade-offs between compounds might be worth exploring. I doubt that to be so with rotors.

.
My personal experience with dodge brakes is this. The late model trucks (i.e. my 2007.5 megacab) came with crap pads.... My first set of pads lasted 20,000 miles, truck was purchased off showroom floor. I installed Hawk performance pads that now need changing at 80,000 miles, along with needing its first set of rear pads. No change in driving style or towing load. I believe the factory wear parts (pads, u-joints, etc) are junk. I had to replace all my u-joints between 30,000 miles and 50,000 miles (right after warranty expired, conveniently) (ALL U-JOINTS 4x4 truck!) Better pad, 3x the life!

Now, my 2002 dodge with dana axles I never did change the brakes (though it was due when I traded it in!) On it I was going with OEM pads because the first set lasted so long. But, my new truck wore out so quick it was crazy.

Just my experience with two different cummins 4x4 dodge trucks
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:40 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I completely agree with all the input on driving skills. Those that are going to use their brakes constantly down a summit will have problems. I am sure as many others have experienced, with the proper gear selection & an exhaust brake travelling down a summit is usually trouble free where very little brake application is required. I am looking for a good setup that would stop in a shorter distance when needed ie. emergency braking. I'm sure i'm not the only one that has come around a corner with a load on to be surprised & then resulting on standing on the pedal & puckering up !! For those who get brake fade due to driving habits should be re-educated. I am just looking for better performance when needed.

Slightly off topic but has anyboy been using a Dot 3/4 brake fluid or are there compatibility issues. I believe it is still a glycol based fluid but with a higher boiling point. I think the fluid is often overlooked & should be changed more often than it usually gets done.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:48 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I completely agree with all the input on driving skills. Those that are going to use their brakes constantly down a summit will have problems. I am sure as many others have experienced, with the proper gear selection & an exhaust brake travelling down a summit is usually trouble free where very little brake application is required. I am looking for a good setup that would stop in a shorter distance when needed ie. emergency braking. I'm sure i'm not the only one that has come around a corner with a load on to be surprised & then resulting on standing on the pedal & puckering up !! For those who get brake fade due to driving habits should be re-educated. I am just looking for better performance when needed.

Slightly off topic but has anyboy been using a Dot 3/4 brake fluid or are there compatibility issues. I believe it is still a glycol based fluid but with a higher boiling point. I think the fluid is often overlooked & should be changed more often than it usually gets done.
Not disagreeing with your point about driving skills being the main issue here but using the argument that you want better stopping power with a load holds no merit on this topic since the OP was after better pads/rotors for the truck.....not a trailer. So, if someone wants better stopping ability with a larger trailer load then stop worrying about the truck and start making sure that the trailer brakes are as good as the truck brakes. A properly equipped trailer, which isn't overloaded, that has proper fully functioning brakes on all the axles, will never have an issue.....unless your driving skills are poor. But we all know the real truth here. Who the heck checks their trailer brakes before their brake controller flashes an indicator that the brake system is shorting out? And who isn't guilty of overloading that trailer.....which coincidentally is the same trailer which hasn't had the brakes checked in forever? So trying to compensate in one department for stupidity in another is just as bad as driving like an idiot with that load someone is so worried about trying to stop. Generally speaking, of course.
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:22 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Not disagreeing with your point about driving skills being the main issue here but using the argument that you want better stopping power with a load holds no merit on this topic since the OP was after better pads/rotors for the truck.....not a trailer. So, if someone wants better stopping ability with a larger trailer load then stop worrying about the truck and start making sure that the trailer brakes are as good as the truck brakes. A properly equipped trailer, which isn't overloaded, that has proper fully functioning brakes on all the axles, will never have an issue.....unless your driving skills are poor. But we all know the real truth here. Who the heck checks their trailer brakes before their brake controller flashes an indicator that the brake system is shorting out? And who isn't guilty of overloading that trailer.....which coincidentally is the same trailer which hasn't had the brakes checked in forever? So trying to compensate in one department for stupidity in another is just as bad as driving like an idiot with that load someone is so worried about trying to stop. Generally speaking, of course.
I don't recall talking about trailer brakes, i don't have a problem with that I have a2011 5th & the brakes are fine. I guess you have never had to make a quick stop. With the bias set for smooth gradual trailer brake application, you will not get full trailer brake stopping power for over a second at least. Sometimes instantly the truck will take the initial grunt of a quick stop. Bottom line is I think the stock truck brakes suck. There has to be something better out there.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:45 AM   #32 (permalink)
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My personal experience with dodge brakes is this. The late model trucks (i.e. my 2007.5 megacab) came with crap pads.... My first set of pads lasted 20,000 miles, truck was purchased off showroom floor. I installed Hawk performance pads that now need changing at 80,000 miles, along with needing its first set of rear pads. No change in driving style or towing load. I believe the factory wear parts (pads, u-joints, etc) are junk. I had to replace all my u-joints between 30,000 miles and 50,000 miles (right after warranty expired, conveniently) (ALL U-JOINTS 4x4 truck!) Better pad, 3x the life!

Now, my 2002 dodge with dana axles I never did change the brakes (though it was due when I traded it in!) On it I was going with OEM pads because the first set lasted so long. But, my new truck wore out so quick it was crazy.

Just my experience with two different cummins 4x4 dodge trucks
trailtoy- Did you recall if it was the Hawk Superduty pads you put in your Megacab? Did you do rotors at the same time?
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:20 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I don't recall talking about trailer brakes, i don't have a problem with that I have a2011 5th & the brakes are fine. I guess you have never had to make a quick stop. With the bias set for smooth gradual trailer brake application, you will not get full trailer brake stopping power for over a second at least. Sometimes instantly the truck will take the initial grunt of a quick stop. Bottom line is I think the stock truck brakes suck. There has to be something better out there.
Well then.....I guess we dont agree as much as I thought we did. If you're trying to discredit me by saying I've never had to stop quick then just know that I too have had to make my fair share of panic stops with a trailer. I also have a CDL as well, so through education and experience, I'm very proficient on the proper methods of stopping a heavy vehicle. Plus if you'd read the last line of my previous post, you'd see that I was speaking generally and not referring to you specifically at all. And yes, you clearly mentioned your concerns while having a load in your previous post.

Hey.....I fully understand the desire to have impeccable braking power in our trucks too, but if what you're really worried about is that momentary time frame when you first step on the brakes and the trailer brakes haven't fully engaged then thats a different issue. And if you think that your 7000-8000 lb truck is going to safely halt that 10-15-20-25k lb trailer behind you in an emergency panic stop with little to no trailer brakes, in that corner you referred to in your post, then you can forget it. Hypothetically, if your truck brakes actually had enough power to lock up both axles as you "stood" on the pedal then you'd quickly find yourself in a jackknife scenario with that trailer behind you. True and understood, electric trailer brakes are slower to respond, especially if you have the setting low and slow to reduce the trucks jerking action but incase you didn't already know, there is high quality electric brake actuators which are designed to work far far better in trailer brake response time by tying into the brake hydraulics or with a cable that connects to the brake pedal, or probably other methods I dont know about too. Those actuators turn your typical electric trailer brakes into brakes which response instantly and equally with the truck brakes. Which brings us back to what I said earlier.....If you're concerned about stopping with a load then look at the trailers brakes.....or trailer brake system and not so much the trucks brakes.

So really again, there is two different case scenarios being discussed here. I understood the OP to be about better pads and rotors which can withstand more braking abuse (ie. heat) in order to reduce fade and wear with a load behind the truck. But here we're now arguing about "panic stopping" with a load where by, again, high dollar pad/rotor will NOT work better than the OEM stuff. If when you stomp on the brake pedal, you feel like there just isn't enough braking power then maybe you need to look into different calipers and/or larger rotors. That would be a far better option than slotted or drilled rotors. And just so we're clear here, I'm not attacking you or trying to say you're stupid either and I respect your opinions.
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:44 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I'm sure i'm not the only one that has come around a corner with a load on to be surprised & then resulting on standing on the pedal & puckering up !!

To use this experience as one of general applicability: I had to ask myself, with a top-heavy loading of a flatbed trailer with a giant -- scary -- 43,000lb single steel coil, do I have X-Ray Vision? Can I see around corners or over hills? Not just in town but on the Interstate?

This puts the problem into perspective: too fast for conditions even if I am traveling at 4-mph under the limit in otherwise excellent weather and low traffic. If that school bus full of junior high kids is sideways to the road after an earlier accident what'll happen if ol' X-Ray here rounds the bend at 66-mph with no where to go?

Believe me that no one will call it accidental. Let's make it more "fun": instead of some crazy steel let's make it a HAZ-MAT load placarded Explosive. Your little niece was on that bus. I know you'll call and tell me it was okay that I puckered up, anyone woulda' been surprised. You won't, and I wasn't.

The differences between that and a CTD towing is only one of degree. Not principle.

You've three problems as have been pointed out -- as does anyone in the situation -- the first is one of skill: knowing when to slow down 'cause the speed limit don't mean squat. Towing about doubles the risk of an accident for every mile traveled. A CTD at or above the speed limit solo is dumb, it's a pickup truck. Above it, and towing . . . ?

Second is that the trailer brakes stop the trailer. Put some discs on it and the best controller. Then test it on pavement, gravel, in the rain, etc, so that you know how to set the gain and adapt your driving. Trailers are always looking to travel faster than you . . and they will. Cheap electric drums are barely worth having. Same for hitch rigging. Too dumb for words are those who think less than state-of-the-art is adequate. Best trailer brakes, controller and rigging will stop the rig faster than a heavily loaded truck by itself. (To a point).

Third is, finally, the truck brakes. Crappy they are not. Have you checked the year model magazine reviews for stopping distances and compared yours? Brake feel is subjective. Ford used to always put too-small brakes on cars and soften the front suspension (talking 1950's/'60's here) and there were those who thought them the greatest, "Man, I nailed the Skyliner brakes and she was scraping her nose those brakes are so good." Dodge put bigger than competition drums and discs on their cars, called that approach Extra Care In Engineering. But they felt different. Anyone getting less than 70k out of these brakes isn't doing their part. I'm not the only one who gets more than 100k (with no exhaust brake).

And where are the even semi-objective tests of aftermarket parts AFTER one has tested the truck against itself and the record when new? Testing counts. Numbers have meaning. Unless the aftermarket brake part is proven, stick with the the people who had to prove their brakes would do what they said they would: Dodge. Otherwise one is going to have to spend really big bucks on BREMBO or other custom 6-piston calipers, giant rotors, new wheels, etc. No guarantee they'll stand up to a 1T worked heavy, either.

The "you" in this, ALL of this, was for anyone reading it. I apologize for my folks not giving me the middle name of Diplomat (and I just made a short 220-mile run where I was being passed on a two-laner by the usual CTD's and their 5'ers swaying as they did so. I'm not feeling generous on this subject today).

.
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Old 03-07-2011, 12:05 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Well then.....I guess we dont agree as much as I thought we did. If you're trying to discredit me by saying I've never had to stop quick then just know that I too have had to make my fair share of panic stops with a trailer. I also have a CDL as well, so through education and experience, I'm very proficient on the proper methods of stopping a heavy vehicle. Plus if you'd read the last line of my previous post, you'd see that I was speaking generally and not referring to you specifically at all. And yes, you clearly mentioned your concerns while having a load in your previous post.

Hey.....I fully understand the desire to have impeccable braking power in our trucks too, but if what you're really worried about is that momentary time frame when you first step on the brakes and the trailer brakes haven't fully engaged then thats a different issue. And if you think that your 7000-8000 lb truck is going to safely halt that 10-15-20-25k lb trailer behind you in an emergency panic stop with little to no trailer brakes, in that corner you referred to in your post, then you can forget it. Hypothetically, if your truck brakes actually had enough power to lock up both axles as you "stood" on the pedal then you'd quickly find yourself in a jackknife scenario with that trailer behind you. True and understood, electric trailer brakes are slower to respond, especially if you have the setting low and slow to reduce the trucks jerking action but incase you didn't already know, there is high quality electric brake actuators which are designed to work far far better in trailer brake response time by tying into the brake hydraulics or with a cable that connects to the brake pedal, or probably other methods I dont know about too. Those actuators turn your typical electric trailer brakes into brakes which response instantly and equally with the truck brakes. Which brings us back to what I said earlier.....If you're concerned about stopping with a load then look at the trailers brakes.....or trailer brake system and not so much the trucks brakes.

So really again, there is two different case scenarios being discussed here. I understood the OP to be about better pads and rotors which can withstand more braking abuse (ie. heat) in order to reduce fade and wear with a load behind the truck. But here we're now arguing about "panic stopping" with a load where by, again, high dollar pad/rotor will NOT work better than the OEM stuff. If when you stomp on the brake pedal, you feel like there just isn't enough braking power then maybe you need to look into different calipers and/or larger rotors. That would be a far better option than slotted or drilled rotors. And just so we're clear here, I'm not attacking you or trying to say you're stupid either and I respect your opinions.
I understand what you are saying & respect the fact that you have a CDL & probably many years of trailering experience. I did not say I wanted to stop my trailer with my truck, that would be stupid ! That is the trailer brakes job. I am aware the other controllers & setups out there also but at this time am just using a standard controller. Of course the trailer & truck should & will stop each independantly when set up properly in tandem. All I am saying is that if the truck has better stopping ability, the trailer brakes would be adjusted to match the truck & then effectively have a better combined stopping distance. IMO these 8000# trucks could have better brakes, there is aftermarket pads rotors & calipers out there & that's what I thought this post was about? I am not trying to start a pi$$ing match & I am definatly not trying to stop my trailer with my truck. Better truck brakes thats it.
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:13 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I apologize for my folks not giving me the middle name of Diplomat
Dont worry slowmover. You post reads awesome and.....you have far more diplomacy than I.

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Originally Posted by barley998877
Better truck brakes thats it.
Understood and good conversation too. It seems that we're all doing our part to be safe out there which is the most important
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