Tire confusion (death wobble)

[Halycon]

Originally Posted by Algae Eater

So I will say again, any expert would agree that "death wobble" can't be *CURED* by switching tires. It can be reduced or delayed until the tires get put out of perfect balance.

100% agreed

Originally Posted by mulisha

how do you explain death wobble at the track only, as soon as i cross the traps, get off the gas and hit the brakes BAM the worst fin death wobble... it sucks..never get it on the road though, to bad the greatest motor is wrapped around a hunk of shiat.

That is weird... do you get it other times when you hit the brakes that hard? How many miles are on the truck? Jack up the front axle and start wiggling things around. First, I'd check the control arm bushings (all 4 arms, both sides of each arm), then ball joints (grab your tire at 12 and 6 and see if you get any play), then all your tie rod ends and the track bar. You have a Thuren track bar, so I doubt there's a problem there, but you never know. Lastly, make sure everything's in alignment. My guess is just that it's a combination of something just BARELY out of adjustment or worn and the speed you're going...

__________________

- Mike -

'01.5 2500 CTD. Adrenaline w/ Pulse on the way, 4" TBE, Offroad Crankcase Breather Mod, AMSOIL Nanofiber, 33" BFG M/T KM2s

[mulisha]

just got a 4 ball joints done with moogs,u-joints, and hub's and bearings.everything else is tight under there. checked the steering box, pitarm ect.doesnt happen on the road ever, just at the track lol.

__________________
2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

[Algae Eater]

Originally Posted by mulisha

just got a 4 ball joints done with moogs,u-joints, and hub's and bearings.everything else is tight under there. checked the steering box, pitarm ect.doesnt happen on the road ever, just at the track lol.

Must be frustrating to not be able to track it down. No pun intended!

That's funny.. today my truck is in, getting similar work done: 4 ball joints, (bad passenger side upper, so had to do all 4) both wheel hub bearings, (BAD driver side - other probably wasn't far behind) and an alignment to go with my new tires. jeez

With my levelling kit, the front axle is about 0.5-1" shifted to the driver's side. So, I'm trying to buy a Thuren track bar b'cuz I want to bolt it in rather than drill a bunch of holes (like the DT bar requires) but Thuren's lead time is like 2 weeks. Luckily my mechanic will align again after I get the track bar and not charge me double.

__________________
98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

[sstuck2]

Man, I will say, this has turned into the typical thread where everyone is mostly correct with their assumptions/knowledge but still on the verge of an argument. Also, if anyone has experienced death wobble they will know it. It is not a shimmy, an out of balance tire, or a busted shock. Bottom line is Ram 2500's new and old have a certain amount of slack accumulated from/caused by almost every part under the front end. ......Speaking from first hand experience by working hand and hand with dodge techs @ dealership, mopar designers, and Superlift.....
If you replace every part under the front end of these trucks with brand new oem parts you will still have slack. Some trucks are worse than others. That is why some people say my truck is fine, and some people hate their truck regardless of leveling kit, lift kit, aftermarket track bar, wheels, tires, etc.... So from the start SOME of us essentially have "worn-out front ends." We are forced to resort to diiferent types of "band-aids," if you will. These band-aids include steering stabilizers, steering box supports, aftermarket track bars, steering box brakes, and so on..... Superlift works closely with the guys from dodge/mopar on a regular basis tackling everything from your custom one-offs to factory problems. So, through that relationship, they have come to learn that the dodge/mopar designers know they have these problems, and are trying to cut out all this aforementioned "slack." In the meantime, those that own 3rd gens will just have to wait and/or "band-aid." Those that own older trucks will always have to resort to the "band-aids."
As for the specific problem with BFG tires on Ram 2500's that some of us incur, they are not recommended for now because they seem to have more side-wall flex/softness. This is added "slack" that some of us just can't afford to have because the amount of slack in your front end may just be too great already. I will say some things we have tried and found to work as a cure for death wobble are: offset wheels, larger wheels[essentially giving you less side wall all together], tire swaps, added caster, harder control arm bushings, upgraded steering stabilizer[duals are recommended], upgraded ride shocks in the front. Each of these could single handed cure a case of death wobble, but it usually takes 2 or more of the changes/upgrades. I recommend adding a dual stabilizer with a pressurized shock such as a bilstein or edelbrock. In most cases this helps tremendously. I've put them on stock trucks that had death wobble. But in the end, when the stabilzers wear out, you will wobble again. Lifted trucks with steep angles on the control arms, off center axles, and large tires will most likely experience some sort of front end woes bacause your problems/slack will be amplified. This is just something you should be prepared for if you love big dodges like me.
Hope this is helpful.

__________________
07 2500 4x4, 6.7 auto, Pioneer Navi, factory remote start, XRT, Edge HOT, Airaid Intake, H&S 5" tbe w/6" tip, egr delete, leveled, 35" FC-II's on custom 20" DC-1's

[Algae Eater]

I can see how the detachedness of the internet could make it look like there's alot more emotion behind things than there really are. I just take it for passion.

I'll speak for myself at least. When I tell people "I'm not convinced", I'm not flame-baiting or trying to start an argument... it's me asking them to give more information. Of course, most of the time it goes ignored.

I dunno, maybe some people are too busy or can't type fast, so they say as little as possible. That makes it hard to determine what's really happening unless you either know them & their truck or are a mind-reader.
At the end of the day, we're all just trying to get to the bottom of our problems.

I agree with you 100% on what you said about all the front-end woes, what causes them and everything else. I just needed to say that I'm not interested in trying to start any arguments here.

This is obviously a costly and frustrating topic for us Dodge truck owners. We have a lot of weak links to contend with and some of them (especially the front-end BS) can be really difficult to figure out. That can get some of us a lil' hot under the collar. I fully understand that passion, (I'm Sicilian-Irish) but alot of the time it gets mistaken for anger.

__________________
98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

[mulisha]

good post tuck, informative

__________________
2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

[Halycon]

Originally Posted by Algae Eater

When I tell people "I'm not convinced", I'm not flame-baiting or trying to start an argument... it's me asking them to give more information.

Same here... I'm not trying to pick fights in the least bit. I hate e-drama stuff and half the reason I love this forum so much is that it has a lot less than others. My apologies to anyone that felt I was picking one. I just like solving problems and, in that process, I'm gonna be honest with people, even if it means telling them I think they might be wrong. PLEASE do the same with me if I'm wrong- I don't mind being put in my place one bit if I am! Again, my apologies if someone felt I was picking a fight.

__________________

- Mike -

'01.5 2500 CTD. Adrenaline w/ Pulse on the way, 4" TBE, Offroad Crankcase Breather Mod, AMSOIL Nanofiber, 33" BFG M/T KM2s

[tclappcummins]

my take is if ya feel like you are beginning to get in an argument with someone on the internet you just don't respond any more.... arguing on the net is alot like competing in the special Olympics no matter if you win or loose when its all said and done your still a retard ( sorry if that offends anyone LOL)

like sstuck said all of these front ends are sooo different it sucks because it makes every single truck different and there is no way that we can pin point a true fix for all trucks... its just a trial and error on what works for your truck...

__________________
Travis 06 2500 Megacab 4x4 gets a bath twice a week

[thuren]

You guys need to think about something...

It is not the tire balance that is the main issue when tires play a part in DW. Think of it this way..

When you put a tire on a balance machine it is making sure the tire is true by weight. If your truck goes into death wobble on a smooth as glass road at a certain speed, every time, that does sound like a tire issue which can maybe be fixed on a balance machine. This is rare with these trucks though. OR, that tire is out of round which can not be seen on a balance machine. This out of round state also has to do with how the tire expands at speed, so even though the tire may measure out good when rolling it, get it up to speed and maybe the internals are coming apart. This also can mean a tire which has some miles now, can all the sudden make a truck get wobble if the insides are starting to come apart.

Don't worry about all this E rated vs D rated stuff either as there is no concrete evidence E rated tires are any better than D's. Just get some proven tires(Toyo/Yokohama - NOT BFGS) and and start from there. IMO a lot of the tire companies have started to cut corners, which is making it hard to keep these trucks from getting wobble.

I also think sidewall material and design is a big player, and this is why some tire brands always work, and others(BFG) are a crapshoot.

[thuren]

Originally Posted by sstuck2

Man, I will say, this has turned into the typical thread where everyone is mostly correct with their assumptions/knowledge but still on the verge of an argument. Also, if anyone has experienced death wobble they will know it. It is not a shimmy, an out of balance tire, or a busted shock. Bottom line is Ram 2500's new and old have a certain amount of slack accumulated from/caused by almost every part under the front end. ......Speaking from first hand experience by working hand and hand with dodge techs @ dealership, mopar designers, and Superlift.....
If you replace every part under the front end of these trucks with brand new oem parts you will still have slack. Some trucks are worse than others. That is why some people say my truck is fine, and some people hate their truck regardless of leveling kit, lift kit, aftermarket track bar, wheels, tires, etc.... So from the start SOME of us essentially have "worn-out front ends." We are forced to resort to diiferent types of "band-aids," if you will. These band-aids include steering stabilizers, steering box supports, aftermarket track bars, steering box brakes, and so on..... Superlift works closely with the guys from dodge/mopar on a regular basis tackling everything from your custom one-offs to factory problems. So, through that relationship, they have come to learn that the dodge/mopar designers know they have these problems, and are trying to cut out all this aforementioned "slack." In the meantime, those that own 3rd gens will just have to wait and/or "band-aid." Those that own older trucks will always have to resort to the "band-aids."
As for the specific problem with BFG tires on Ram 2500's that some of us incur, they are not recommended for now because they seem to have more side-wall flex/softness. This is added "slack" that some of us just can't afford to have because the amount of slack in your front end may just be too great already. I will say some things we have tried and found to work as a cure for death wobble are: offset wheels, larger wheels[essentially giving you less side wall all together], tire swaps, added caster, harder control arm bushings, upgraded steering stabilizer[duals are recommended], upgraded ride shocks in the front. Each of these could single handed cure a case of death wobble, but it usually takes 2 or more of the changes/upgrades. I recommend adding a dual stabilizer with a pressurized shock such as a bilstein or edelbrock. In most cases this helps tremendously. I've put them on stock trucks that had death wobble. But in the end, when the stabilzers wear out, you will wobble again. Lifted trucks with steep angles on the control arms, off center axles, and large tires will most likely experience some sort of front end woes bacause your problems/slack will be amplified. This is just something you should be prepared for if you love big dodges like me.
Hope this is helpful.

Very good info but let me add my findings, and clarify a couple things..

Tire sidewall stiffness means nothing to death wobble. Sometimes lowering air pressure makes the DW better, and sometimes going to a better designed D rated tire over an E has made the wobble go away completely, so the argument about sidewall stiffness has holes in it.

A pressurized stabilizer does not mean the internal design is proper. To be a top notch stabilizer that shock must have an internal reservoir. If not, it is still an emulsion shock for the most part. These trucks need the best stabilizer shock they can get so you don;t have to label it a band aid.

You will always have slack in the steering components, as there is even built in "slack" in the steering column which you can not get rid of(STUPID ENGINEER!) so focus on making the trackbar is tight, consistent caster, and a top notch stabilizer shock will usually take care of most DW.

edit: Please don't take offence as I was singling you out I was mainly just adding to the info.