Tire confusion (death wobble) - Page 2

vlancaster · 06-26-2009, 03:59 PM

i think you just described my problem! if we had smooth roads i wouldnt have any problems...

__________________
04.5 HO edge jammer turbo, magnasuck muffler, homemade 4" intake w/ amsoil filter. PPE programemr

Mad Mike · 06-26-2009, 07:49 PM

I just today cured my DEATH WOBBLE promlem...I was running BFG AT'S 315 / 70 17's they are load range D. I just got my new Toyo's 35 / 12.50 17 MT's. I can't beleive the differance. I went out and hit every pothole and expansion joint I could find, the ones I usually can't avoid and the ones I always knew would be a problem...............guess what????? NO MORE DEATH WOBBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think tires with a load range D above 33" tall are THE MAIN culprit in the DEATH WOBBLE problem.
My problem is finnally solved
I'm HAPPY

__________________
07.5, 2500 4x4 QCSB, 6.7 auto 68rfe, ex. brake, 3.73, 2" Cage leveling kit, an extra leaf added to the pack, 35 / 12.50 Toyo MT's on stock rims.....thats it for now

vlancaster · 06-27-2009, 12:14 AM

i dont think my tires are the problem b/c i've had them for 20k and the problem just now arose.??? i rotate and balance them every 5k

__________________
04.5 HO edge jammer turbo, magnasuck muffler, homemade 4" intake w/ amsoil filter. PPE programemr

***Halycon*** · 06-27-2009, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tclappcummins

If I didnt have death wobble then I'd like for you to explain to me why my front end was literally bouncing off of the ground uncontrollably had ABSOLUTELY no control over the truck what so ever the truck was shaking so violently stuff from the back seat of the truck bounced up into the windshield of the truck hit me and the girl in my passenger sit... how the truck was shaking so violently you couldn't hold onto the steering wheel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halycon

... tclapp, I'm not saying you didn't experience death wobble...

__________________

- Mike -

'01.5 2500 CTD. Adrenaline w/ Pulse on the way, 4" TBE, Offroad Crankcase Breather Mod, AMSOIL Nanofiber, 33" BFG M/T KM2s

Algae Eater · 06-27-2009, 03:25 PM

Well tclapp, it definitely sounds like death wobble.. not b'cuz of the front end bouncing off the ground (death wob is more of a side to side thing than a bouncing thing - from what I know). However, your steering wheel rotating violently back & forth sounds like death wobble.

I said I wasn't "convinced" only because your original post didn't provide enough detail for anyone to adequately agree or disagree. I'll speak for myself, but I think most people here are just trying to help or get help in problem solving, not prove anything.

As for whether "death wobble" can be cured by switching tires and/or rims, that can be found out by asking suspension experts... or reading about "death wobble".

For an idea of all the things that can be wrong that will contribute to (or mimic) deathwobble symptoms:

My truck has this wrong with it:
- bad passenger-side ball joints, (so next week I need to spend $1000 to do BOTH balljoints - upper & lower)
- bad driver-side wheel hub bearing ($300-400 - no labor if doing balljoints)
- a stock trackbar on a 2.5" Revtek front leveling (lift) kit. This shifts the front axle to the driver's side almost 1". So the truck "crab-crawls" slightly (back & front wheels take different line).
- worn out Drag Link ends.
- the usual steering box flex makes road-wander (side to side shifts without warning) a BIG problem unless you steer constantly like Bo & Luke Duke.

I just put Bilstein 5100 shocks all around, but before I did that, the prior owner was an idiot and had some Toyota truck shocks on the thing. It bounced on the HWY so bad I thought the cab was gonna come off. The Bilstein shocks reduced that.

It also had NO steering damper whatsoever. I put a Moog damper on and the steering wheel didn't tweak my wrist on potholes anymore.

So if you combine all of those things together, and think of it as a symphony. You have a VERY out of tune symphony.

Heavy tires (35" and up - especially if they go out of balance) will intensify front-end vibrations, put more stress & wear on all front-end components and make it harder to keep it all smooth. Unless you upgrade everything... then you can really improve the ride, which will also add durability to your front end so you don't need to replace things as often.

Between the tires I got yesterday (BFG M/T KM2 33x11x16) and the front end work I'm about to have done on Monday, it's going to cost me over $3K to get my truck aligned with the new shoes. Then end of next week Left Coast Diesel is putting in a Goerend transmission that I had already put a $2000 deposit on. I would cancel the tranny if I had known my front end was so messed up.

BTW my new 33" tires (down from 35" before) didn't solve my messed up balljoints, worn trackbar, steering box flex etc... I still wobble all over the road.

__________________
98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

mulisha · 06-27-2009, 03:32 PM

how do you explain death wobble at the track only, as soon as i cross the traps, get off the gas and hit the brakes BAM the worst fin death wobble... it sucks..never get it on the road though, to bad the greatest motor is wrapped around a hunk of shiat.

__________________
2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

Algae Eater · 06-27-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Mike

I just today cured my DEATH WOBBLE promlem...I was running BFG AT'S 315 / 70 17's they are load range D. I just got my new Toyo's 35 / 12.50 17 MT's. I can't beleive the differance. I went out and hit every pothole and expansion joint I could find, the ones I usually can't avoid and the ones I always knew would be a problem...............guess what????? NO MORE DEATH WOBBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think tires with a load range D above 33" tall are THE MAIN culprit in the DEATH WOBBLE problem.
My problem is finnally solved
I'm HAPPY

I'm glad your problem was solved (even if temporary) by switching tires, but I would bet money that it is an underlying problem that the BFG AT's were amplifying because of a possible tire problem (they're notorious for balancing issues). I hope I'm wrong, but the problem could resurface in your new tires once they get a bit more "broken in". Or maybe the Toyo's are so much better that they will wear perfect and the problem won't recur.

Your sig says you have a 2" levelling kit. Do you have the stock trackbar still? I'm sure that shifts your front axle toward the driver's side, which causes all sorts of resonant imbalances. Couple that with steering box flex and some (even slightly) imbalanced tires - you've got deathwobble.

You should install an adjustable trackbar to re-center the front-end.. then get it aligned.

A better-than-stock steering damper (steering shock) will also help you out big-time.

And even though your truck is a new 3rd gen, it still has the flexy steering box.. if you want it to steer like a Miata, you can install a "steering brace support" (SBS). There are numerous companies who make them.

If good (safe) handling is high priority, these upgrades are just necessary.

Whenever someone says they have "death wobble" it always seems that they have a mild-lift/levelling kit. Not only does it shift the axle to the driver's side, but it also changes the control-arm geometry. The control-arms are too short and the axle shifts to the back of the truck. It's more that geometric change that contributes to deathwobble than the side-to-side shift.

So I will say again, any expert would agree that "death wobble" can't be *CURED* by switching tires. It can be reduced or delayed until the tires get put out of perfect balance.

And one more thing... if you put those BFG AT's (that were causing your death wobble) onto someone else's truck, if that truck has a well-aligned, squared & braced-up front end, those BFG's aren't going to give that other truck death wobble.

__________________
98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

Last edited by Algae Eater : 06-27-2009 at 03:57 PM.

Algae Eater · 06-27-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mulisha

how do you explain death wobble at the track only, as soon as i cross the traps, get off the gas and hit the brakes BAM the worst fin death wobble... it sucks..never get it on the road though, to bad the greatest motor is wrapped around a hunk of shiat.

And you've got some Thuren stuff in your front end?? That's really weird... looks like you've addressed most of the front end weaknesses.. is there any front lift? Couldn't tell from your sig. If so, could it be the stock control arms? Or the steering damper/shock? Is that stock?

__________________
98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

mulisha · 06-27-2009, 04:34 PM

i have the fox damper, and stock shocks. i think it could be the shocks, cause when i cross the traps and get on the brake, its like im loading up the suspension and thats whats causing it.

__________________
2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

Algae Eater · 06-28-2009, 05:22 PM

So, no lift or levelling kit then?

Well you gotta admit... it's hard to call it a hunk of shiat for vibrating @ 115MPH!!

haha

There are so many things that could cause a front end vibration upon deceleration at that speed. A tiny tire imbalance combined with stock shocks etc... plus, sounds like you're hitting the brakes pretty hard to slow down fast.. unless you've got an upgraded brake system (slotted/drilled rotors, HD pads, stainless lines etc..) you've probably got some slight assymmetrical grabbing on one side or the other. Just a possibility. I don't know anything about your truck, but mine would probably end up in the neighbor's field if I hit the brakes at 100MPH.

What I do know is that's a friggin fast truck. Saw the video.. a little fuzzy, but I get it.

__________________
98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

Last edited by Algae Eater : 06-28-2009 at 05:28 PM.

mulisha · 06-28-2009, 05:42 PM

what kind of shocks do you reccomend, thats a fairly cheap mod kinda.

__________________
2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

Algae Eater · 06-28-2009, 06:02 PM

I'm by no means a shock/suspension expert. And I know it's a matter of preference.

I have Bilstein 5100's. They're s'pose to be OK. I can't tell cuz my front-end is so messed up otherwise!

Some people like Rancho's or Fox. It's not cheap when you start getting shocks that are adjustable or remote-reservoir stuff. Even Bilsteins 5100's were almost $400 for the parts. The 5150's are way more expensive I think.

__________________
98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

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06-26-2009, 03:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
vlancaster Cummins Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: b-town, ark Posts: 162 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts vlancaster's Truck Pics	i think you just described my problem! if we had smooth roads i wouldnt have any problems... __________________ 04.5 HO edge jammer turbo, magnasuck muffler, homemade 4" intake w/ amsoil filter. PPE programemr

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06-26-2009, 07:49 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mad Mike Boss - Head Ramrod Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sussex County NJ Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Mad Mike's Truck Pics	I just today cured my DEATH WOBBLE promlem...I was running BFG AT'S 315 / 70 17's they are load range D. I just got my new Toyo's 35 / 12.50 17 MT's. I can't beleive the differance. I went out and hit every pothole and expansion joint I could find, the ones I usually can't avoid and the ones I always knew would be a problem...............guess what????? NO MORE DEATH WOBBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think tires with a load range D above 33" tall are THE MAIN culprit in the DEATH WOBBLE problem. My problem is finnally solved I'm HAPPY __________________ 07.5, 2500 4x4 QCSB, 6.7 auto 68rfe, ex. brake, 3.73, 2" Cage leveling kit, an extra leaf added to the pack, 35 / 12.50 Toyo MT's on stock rims.....thats it for now

06-27-2009, 12:14 AM	#15 (permalink)
vlancaster Cummins Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: b-town, ark Posts: 162 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts vlancaster's Truck Pics	i dont think my tires are the problem b/c i've had them for 20k and the problem just now arose.??? i rotate and balance them every 5k __________________ 04.5 HO edge jammer turbo, magnasuck muffler, homemade 4" intake w/ amsoil filter. PPE programemr

06-27-2009, 03:25 PM	#17 (permalink)
Algae Eater Cummins Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 263 Thanks: 18 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts Algae Eater's Truck Pics	Well tclapp, it definitely sounds like death wobble.. not b'cuz of the front end bouncing off the ground (death wob is more of a side to side thing than a bouncing thing - from what I know). However, your steering wheel rotating violently back & forth sounds like death wobble. I said I wasn't "convinced" only because your original post didn't provide enough detail for anyone to adequately agree or disagree. I'll speak for myself, but I think most people here are just trying to help or get help in problem solving, not prove anything. As for whether "death wobble" can be cured by switching tires and/or rims, that can be found out by asking suspension experts... or reading about "death wobble". For an idea of all the things that can be wrong that will contribute to (or mimic) deathwobble symptoms: My truck has this wrong with it: - bad passenger-side ball joints, (so next week I need to spend $1000 to do BOTH balljoints - upper & lower) - bad driver-side wheel hub bearing ($300-400 - no labor if doing balljoints) - a stock trackbar on a 2.5" Revtek front leveling (lift) kit. This shifts the front axle to the driver's side almost 1". So the truck "crab-crawls" slightly (back & front wheels take different line). - worn out Drag Link ends. - the usual steering box flex makes road-wander (side to side shifts without warning) a BIG problem unless you steer constantly like Bo & Luke Duke. I just put Bilstein 5100 shocks all around, but before I did that, the prior owner was an idiot and had some Toyota truck shocks on the thing. It bounced on the HWY so bad I thought the cab was gonna come off. The Bilstein shocks reduced that. It also had NO steering damper whatsoever. I put a Moog damper on and the steering wheel didn't tweak my wrist on potholes anymore. So if you combine all of those things together, and think of it as a symphony. You have a VERY out of tune symphony. Heavy tires (35" and up - especially if they go out of balance) will intensify front-end vibrations, put more stress & wear on all front-end components and make it harder to keep it all smooth. Unless you upgrade everything... then you can really improve the ride, which will also add durability to your front end so you don't need to replace things as often. Between the tires I got yesterday (BFG M/T KM2 33x11x16) and the front end work I'm about to have done on Monday, it's going to cost me over $3K to get my truck aligned with the new shoes. Then end of next week Left Coast Diesel is putting in a Goerend transmission that I had already put a $2000 deposit on. I would cancel the tranny if I had known my front end was so messed up. BTW my new 33" tires (down from 35" before) didn't solve my messed up balljoints, worn trackbar, steering box flex etc... I still wobble all over the road. __________________ 98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)

06-27-2009, 03:32 PM	#18 (permalink)
mulisha Diesel Head Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: jersey Posts: 1,508 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts mulisha's Truck Pics	how do you explain death wobble at the track only, as soon as i cross the traps, get off the gas and hit the brakes BAM the worst fin death wobble... it sucks..never get it on the road though, to bad the greatest motor is wrapped around a hunk of shiat. __________________ 2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

06-27-2009, 04:34 PM	#21 (permalink)
mulisha Diesel Head Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: jersey Posts: 1,508 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts mulisha's Truck Pics	i have the fox damper, and stock shocks. i think it could be the shocks, cause when i cross the traps and get on the brake, its like im loading up the suspension and thats whats causing it. __________________ 2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

06-28-2009, 05:22 PM	#22 (permalink)
Algae Eater Cummins Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 263 Thanks: 18 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts Algae Eater's Truck Pics	So, no lift or levelling kit then? Well you gotta admit... it's hard to call it a hunk of shiat for vibrating @ 115MPH!! haha There are so many things that could cause a front end vibration upon deceleration at that speed. A tiny tire imbalance combined with stock shocks etc... plus, sounds like you're hitting the brakes pretty hard to slow down fast.. unless you've got an upgraded brake system (slotted/drilled rotors, HD pads, stainless lines etc..) you've probably got some slight assymmetrical grabbing on one side or the other. Just a possibility. I don't know anything about your truck, but mine would probably end up in the neighbor's field if I hit the brakes at 100MPH. What I do know is that's a friggin fast truck. Saw the video.. a little fuzzy, but I get it. __________________ 98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!) Last edited by Algae Eater : 06-28-2009 at 05:28 PM.

06-28-2009, 05:42 PM	#23 (permalink)
mulisha Diesel Head Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: jersey Posts: 1,508 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts mulisha's Truck Pics	what kind of shocks do you reccomend, thats a fairly cheap mod kinda. __________________ 2007 5.9 laramie QC,THUREN trac/stab/,MBRP'S,CFM,ARP'S,FASS,F1SPRINGS,STAGE3 CP3,TNT-R,MP-8,R700'S,IIDUAL RAIL,DDP'S,HELIX2,BD INTERCOOLER,HTS,W/METH,OPIE'S,11.82@114,video 12.01http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...0417092040.flv

06-28-2009, 06:02 PM	#24 (permalink)
Algae Eater Cummins Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 263 Thanks: 18 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts Algae Eater's Truck Pics	I'm by no means a shock/suspension expert. And I know it's a matter of preference. I have Bilstein 5100's. They're s'pose to be OK. I can't tell cuz my front-end is so messed up otherwise! Some people like Rancho's or Fox. It's not cheap when you start getting shocks that are adjustable or remote-reservoir stuff. Even Bilsteins 5100's were almost $400 for the parts. The 5150's are way more expensive I think. __________________ 98 12valve QC LB 4WD w/ 170K [new Goerend 47re, DDP fuel plate, AFE ProGuard7, MBRP 4" TB w/ 5" tip, Thuren trackbar, Bilstein 5100's, 2.5" Revtek level kit, BFG Mud KM2 33x11's, AWC 16x8 rims, Amsoil, silencer ring gone, KDP tabbed (THANKS Nitrous340!)