People STILL don't understand fuel flow requirements !

[Superduty]

Richard from Glacier Diesel now has people making over 500 HP with a Walbro and its keeping the pressure up at 18 to 21 PSI.

"Just dynoed at Dynomite with new upgrades. With just injectors and Super B I put down 365. Now with Superchips, Walbro fuel system and HTT 62-14 I put down 507hp and 938ft lbs Fuel pressure dropped to 18psi then recovered almost instantly back to 21psi."

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...d.php?t=159535

A Walbro puts out 75 GPH at those pressures. If the guy wanted 30 PSI he would just have to crank up the regulator a bit. I'm not even sure he is using a regulator !


And yet there are still people out there CONVINCED that they need a FASS 150 or FASS200.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...d.php?t=161515

Answer me this: what YEAR will people start realizing how little fuel these engines and their fuel pumps really need ?

[ndurbin]

Some of it's marketing, some of it's word of mouth, that type of stuff. Whats the first thing that comes to mind with alotta people when they talk about fixing fuel issues? get a FASS, is the answer you get mosta the time.

Is the FASS a bad pump? No.........is the 150 overkill for most? sometimes.......but they do offer a 95 GPH version.

the YEAR they will realizie that is the YEAR the Wlbro becomes as main stream as the FASS.

[Superduty]

I don't give a darn what brand of pump they use. What riles me is that people talk like these engines need 150 or 200 GPH.

You are exactly right that it comes from word of mouth and marketing ! Don't people think ? A 200 GPH pump will empty a 30 gallon fuel tank in 9 minutes ! When was the last time you saw a truck that could drink 30 gallons of diesel in 9 minutes ?

Think, people, think.

What makes this really funny is that the FASS has the regulator at the pump body. So the injection pump gets the 20 GPH that it needs and the other 130/180 GPH gets circulated back to the tank ! Talk about a waste !

"is the 150 overkill for most? sometimes....." IT IS OVERKILL ALL THE TIME ! For everyone. 24x7. PERIOD. Show me one truck that needs anywhere near 150 GPH. All this 95/150/200 GPH talk is nothing but plain BS, through and through. How come people can't figure that out is beyond me.

On the other hand, some people still think Ford 6.0s are good engines too.

[Diesel-Dan]

I totally agree with you that the 95 GPH units we sell are good for the majority of the truck on the road. BUT, rather than just killing the 150 GPH, we decide to keep it going for parts and to support the people that stared with the first kits.....which 150 GPH was the ONLY option at the time. The 200 GPH pump is just a 150 GPH pump base with the larger EM-1002 motor on it. This is really only for high pressure/volume applications (Not just limited to the 5.9L trucks....Bigger Pro-pulling tractors and such). We can also do the same thing with the 95 GPH pump on the larger motor. We found that this is good for the 7.3L and 6.0L PSD needing 60-70 PSI for the fuel rail at about 90 GPH.

The FASS (NOT the HPFP) uses the excess flow to help purge the air out of the fuel filter when it builds up at the top. SO the return back to the tank and extra flow is needed to let the FASS operate correctly. The HPFP came about due to the markets demand for a stand alone fuel pump. Rather than reinvent the wheel, we just used the pumps that were already used on the FASS.

While the Dodge/Cummins market has been real good to us....we don’t necessarily build units that will work just for the Cummins. We have a broader view to help fill niches in all performance markets.

[Superduty]

"The FASS (NOT the HPFP) uses the excess flow to help purge the air out of the fuel filter when it builds up at the top. SO the return back to the tank and extra flow is needed to let the FASS operate correctly."

Then you need to redesign a few things.

And moreover you should be telling people they need 150 GPH for the pump to operate properly NOT THE ENGINE.

"This is really only for high pressure/volume applications"

There isn't a truck in the world that needs 150 GPH. They might need some pressure, ie 60+ PSI for the Powerstroke, but nobody needs 150 GPH.

[Diesel-Dan]

The FASS need excess flow to operate. Period....weather it be a 95-150-200. IF it didn’t have by-pass flow....we couldn’t call it a Fuel Air Separation System. No air would be separated from the fuel and the thing would eventually air lock the engine.

Have you noticed how much more a 150 kits costs than a 95 Kit? They are the same price. SO we are not making any more cash on the fact we have a 150 GPH kit. (The 200 GPH pump comes with the motor that can live with the higher amperage/load....this larger motor costs us more to use) Running the higher volume kits have no ill effects at all on the engine. Who cares if its way more than needed. I would rather have it that way than just dead on the line. (Me personally) Our kits/motors are set up to handle it.

People want more than just enough. There is more than one way of looking at this. If the extra volume is not hurting anything, what difference does it make?

SD, I respect you opinions, and you have a right to voice what you think/know. You should start a shock jock diesel radio show! Might be some good $$$ in it!:thumbsup

[Superduty]

"we couldn’t call it a Fuel Air Separation System."

OK... you brought it up. Lets settle this right now. THERE IS NO AIR IN DIESEL FUEL. At least not enough to make any darn difference !

Diesel fuel is a hydrocarbon. When you decrease the pressure on it, some of it vaporizes. When you pressure it up, the vapor goes back into liquid. As long as the pumping chamber on a pump is at a reasonable pressure, the vapor component is in liquid for and IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE !

THERE IS NO AIR IN DIESEL FUEL !

I should be a diesel shock jock ? Well... I guess the truth would shock some people !

[Diesel-Dan]

I have to respectfully disagree. Quote from Cummins Service Topics No. 5-135 Pg 3 out of 9:

"The source of vapor is the fuel itself. Like water, fuel contains a certain amount of dissolved air depending upon the fuel temperature, pressure on the fuel, specific gravity and the amount of AERATION to which the fuel has been subjected. Reducing the pressure on the fuel or increasing the temperature of the fuel releases the air. The amount of released depends upon the degree of fuel saturation with air and the magnitude of pressure reduction or the temperature increase ."

Let me add that this topic was posted due to the fact that "the Cummins-Fleetguard filters are only partially filled with fuel when removed from the engine where the supply tank is below the filter."

You can't tell me that the fuel sloshing around in the tank doesn’t not cause a massive amount of aeration. Power Strokes have issue with air getting trapped in the fuel rail due to the dead head fuel system they run. Where does this air come from?

We have had SEVERAL reports of hard nose testers tell us that the FASS made a difference in their truck. Cat has done testing on this subject and found that air in the fuel was a big factor in burning up tips on their injectors. I don’t have the testing data in front of me at the moment, but i will do my best to dig it up.

Brad has done too much testing, and has had too much history with this type of air separation for the FASS to be bunk! Too many positive results. Trust me, if it didn’t work, we would not be in business right now.

I am not on this site and others to get into pissing matches about our product. I am here for support and to answer questions about our product. Not defend the how and whys of why it works.

Everyone knows where you stand for fuel pumps. That’s fine...the Walbor is a solid pump. Heck, I have one on my desk right now for testing. Everyone knows how you feel. AND honestly, based on the history of past threads on here and on DTR, there is no way I, Brad, or anyone else, can bring points to the table with out constant attacks on our creditability, with all due respect. Like I said, you have the right to feel/think the way you do. I just don’t feel my participation in these types of threads is productive to the better of the board.

I will still look for the thread about the Cat testing and post the results they found.

[Superduty]

"The source of vapor is the fuel itself. Like water, fuel contains a certain amount of dissolved air depending upon the fuel temperature, pressure on the fuel, specific gravity and the amount of AERATION to which the fuel has been subjected. Reducing the pressure on the fuel or increasing the temperature of the fuel releases the air. The amount of released depends upon the degree of fuel saturation with air and the magnitude of pressure reduction or the temperature increase ."


a) I think the author of that has air and vapor intertwined which is OK.

b) That quote says "Reducing the pressure on the fuel or increasing the temperature of the fuel releases the air."

Which implies that increasing the pressure on it keeps the "air" entrained. Its just like a bottle of Pepsi. As long as the cap stays on the bottle and things stay pressurized, everything is fine. Everything stays liquid.

So when you feed the VP44 or CP3 at 20 PSI, all the "air" is entrained in the fuel.

You are right that some of the fuel filter may not be full when you remove it. What is the pressure on the fuel when you remove it ? AMBIENT ! When that filter is under pressure, it is full.

Your use of the "filter isn't full" argument is flawed in another way. Some siphoning could have taken place after the pump was shut off.

So... the VP44 (and a P7100) are positive displacement pumps. And the heat energy of the fuel reaching the combustion chamber depends on the mass of the fuel. Thus the only way to get a change in performance is to change the density of the fuel in the pumping chamber. The diesel fuel I buy at the pumps weighs 7 pounds per gallon. Are you telling me that your system can alter the density of the fuel ?

..

[kcurTReulaVeurT]

You guys are kepping this a cival conversation , and I hope it stays that way.......this is pretty interesting to get the perspective from two sides of the issue.

[got...DIESEL?]

I have a constructive question for both of you guys, as some others may as well, so i will voice it for all that are curious.

Is it not true that depending on the pump design and function, that the simple act of moving fuel by means of vane, gerotor, or diaphram type pumping apparatus tends to withdraw any air in solution out of solution due to the pressure drop associated on the lee side of the pump device? Please help us understand the dynamic differences between these two pumps and why one employs a high volume bypass and one can dead head with no assumed symptoms?

And if your answers come as I suspect, is the argument not frivolous due to the different styles of each pump requiring independant operating parameters to fit and function as designed? So how can one be any different, or any better than the other when the desired outcome remains the same? The VP's don't die under the control of an upgraded fuel system. Does it not fall under the premise that it merely comes down to the owner buying the pump as to which style he prefers, or which badge he is proud to display? Am I wrong on this one? If not, constructively explain your positions please! To throw a third member into the mix.....who's using a R.A.S.P? Why haven't these obvious powerhouse pumps been scrutinized and bashed about the threads in the same way as the other two?

While I'd admit quickly that I claim no expertiece regarding ISB or HPCR fuel system technology, I am mystified as to why there is such ferocity behind the fuel supply argument that encircles these two systems.

Chris

[99 cummins]

I personally would love to have a RASP, until I started reading the install procedures. They say you also need the electric pump along with the RASP for priming purposes. I didn't understand that having grown up in the old semi's and farm trucks that were all mechanical. For priming you just cracked an injector and cranked the starter until it went. I didn't evn mind the price of the RASP until you add the price of the electric to go with it. That ruined it for me.