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Old 07-11-2008, 01:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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4bt Pump Questions

As I understand it the 4bt has had two different pumps the VE pump and the P-pump. Correct?

So if I was to purchase a 4bt with a VE pump can I switch it to a P-pump?

Is the P-pump the exact same as our loved 5.9 cummins with the extra two ports plugged?

It seems the P-pump model is more popular do to the amount of power that can be gained.

Thanks for the help
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
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a 4bt is a 4 cylinder cummins, they should come with a inline 4 pump

Now if your talking about the 6bt 1st gens had the VE, and 2nd gens until 98 have the P7100 pump

4bt were in skid steers, bread trucks, that sort of thing

6bt were in trucks, buses, that sort of equipment

Hope this helps
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The 4bt is an excellent engine for building power- Check out the 800+ hp Triple Turbo-ed 4bt here:

GoDieselRacing.com - Where the FAST racers chat

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Old 07-11-2008, 11:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
a 4bt is a 4 cylinder cummins, they should come with a inline 4 pump
There are a lot of 4Bt's out there with the VE injection pump on them.

You can change one over to a P7100. But its like our 1st gens. You need the P7100 injectors, injector lines, timing case, 4BT injection pump and drive gear, lift pump for the P7100.
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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We run a couple of the p-pumped 4BT's (135hp)

They use a Bosch P3000 pump, Pretty close to our well known P7100 but missing half the pump!



Also, like stated above, they do come with VE pumps too...
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
There are a lot of 4Bt's out there with the VE injection pump on them.

You can change one over to a P7100. But its like our 1st gens. You need the P7100 injectors, injector lines, timing case, 4BT injection pump and drive gear, lift pump for the P7100.
You're right. After doing some research, It is possible to switch over to a P7100 but costly. Also it seems the VE rotary pump is more than capable to do what I need. Not to mention there are some impressive power numbers out there with 4BTAA and rotary.

It does seem though that the guys going for real hp with these diesels are using the P-pump.

Thanks for the help
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:42 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdave View Post
We run a couple of the p-pumped 4BT's (135hp)

They use a Bosch P3000 pump, Pretty close to our well known P7100 but missing half the pump!



Also, like stated above, they do come with VE pumps too...
How do the two compare in your opinion.

The VE is mechanical and fuel lubricated. P-pump is lubricated with oil and electric timing correct?
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:44 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Kind of curious now, why whould someone use a P7100 pump instead of the P3000?

The P3000 cant push enough fuel?


EDIT: Now i see you just posted....

I cannot say how they compare directly, we use them on our diamond drills and only use them with the p-pump. Our only VE pumped engines are a B3.3 and a pair of 6BTAA's on totally different drills.

The p3000 does not have electronic timing, at least none of ours do, oil lubd like the p7100. full mechanical engine, give it fuel and spin it over and its good to go!

I can say though, our P3000 pumped 3.9s seem to always have a mysterious 'surge' at higher RPMs under light/no load which is pretty hard on the engine mounts. Not sure exactly what the cause is, even cummins is stumped...
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:58 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Philip,

I have read many of your posts and you seem to have a great deal of cummins knowledge so if you don't mind I would love your input on my project idea. Anyone else please feel free to pipe in.

I have a E350 van with a 351 and a E4OD tranny. I want to get rid of the 351 gasser and replace it with a Cummins 4BTAA. The 4BT seems to have plenty of power capability with little effort. So here are some question I have.

Good idea or Bad?

Keep the Ford tranny? Or should I try to use a turbo 400 or Allison? Seems like both of these trannys are available without much searching. Oh ya, forgot to mention this is also a 4x4 conversion van.

Last

What should I be concerned about when purchasing of the Engines?

Thanks
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I assume you want to buy a used engine correct?

First things first you are going to want the thing to fit under the hood, a high mount turbo definately wont do the trick as it takes up all kinds of room!

Then, you have to worry about the room you have infront of the engine. If space is tight and not enough for an intercooler you will want to find one with the air-water intercooler to save room upfront.

As for the trans i would definately drop the E4OD for something else. The TH400 might do the trick depending on what you want to do with the engine and the allison would be even better but might be a nightmare to get working correctly as you will need some sort of PCM to control it.
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:06 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Your engine bay is the big issue. A 4BT from crank center line to top of valve covers is 24". That doesn't include a high mount turbo eather. But I think the 4BT was avaible with a low mount manifold. Just finding a CPL # for that app might be a problem. With a low mount the other issue might be the width of the package. With the engine centered in the chassis. The turbo would be real close to the engine cover. It would need lots of insulation or a very good heat shield.

If you keep the HP under 200 or so the E4OD or the 400 would work. The E4OD would need some type of controller. I don't know what is on the market for them. The 400 turbo is a stand alone trans. But it doesn't have an OD. So you would need a high set of rear gears for any road speed. The ally 1000 can be used also. In stock form the ally will handle even a turned up 4BT. You can get it in 5 or 6 speeds. The 5 spd is a single OD. The 6 spd has two OD's. The stock ally TCM can be reprogramed to work from a TPS signal. So that puts it into a stand alone class.

Your saying E350. Is this a box type truck or an actual Van.??? On eather one the engine bay size is about the same. What year model?

Can this swap be done. The biggest issue I see is the height of the 4BT. Engine covers can be reworked or MFG'd. But the windshield bottom edge is one place you can't modify without great expense. The windshield bottom edge is about even with the top of the engine covers on an E series. A body lift could overcome some of that issue.

If you noticed I didn't mention distance from the crank centerline downward. There are several different configurations on oil pans. So any number I could throw out might not mean anything if the oil pan is different.
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Philip,

Thanks for the input and taking the time to answer. Still need to do some more planning before I start this type of project.
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