My Magdrive HHO test Results

[mertzj]

Originally Posted by WorkhorseDiesel

There is even one website offering $1 million dollars to the person that is using an HHO generator and who can PROVE (through rigorous testing) that their device will produce at least a 25% gain in fuel efficiency. So far, NOBODY has come forward to challenge for the million. Kinda makes you wonder WHY? Maybe cause nobody has seen a consistent gain like that? Hope this helps.

So where is this website?

[DORKWEED]

I've been following these threads from the beginning; and I've yet to read convincing proof that these things will work on a pressurized intake.......aka, our trucks with the turbo!!!! This is a "passive" system, which doesn't force the hydrogen into the intake. In a naturally aspirated engine, it will be drawn in due to engine vaccuum. On a pressurized system, ain't no way!!!! I cannnot see how this will work on our trucks!!!!!

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

[speed185187]

Originally Posted by DORKWEED

I've been following these threads from the beginning; and I've yet to read convincing proof that these things will work on a pressurized intake.......aka, our trucks with the turbo!!!! This is a "passive" system, which doesn't force the hydrogen into the intake. In a naturally aspirated engine, it will be drawn in due to engine vacuum. On a pressurized system, ain't no way!!!! I cannot see how this will work on our trucks!!!!!

It's being fed to the engine BEFORE the turbo => vacuum.

__________________
00 2500 2wd ext cab, SB. (BHAF, silencer ring MIA, Boost, EGT, FP Gauges, Breather bottle relocate, Fass 150/150, Fireball 150's, VA smart box, 4" exhaust)
03 Jetta TDI 5 spd "See tdiclub.com for all mods"

[CTD4ME]

So we still dunno about this deal I have read over 20 pages and no REAL results so who knows

[Tree DR]

It works just getting the truck to work with it is the problem. Leaning the fuel and changing the timeing. If I had a way to do my own computer programing. I've seen mpg gains just not consistantly.
Here's another interesting web site.
http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Ener...rogenMyths.pdf

__________________
05 3500 4x4

[UncleDe]

I believe HHO works, I use it in my car. Before 33 HWY, after 42 HWY. 1985 1500CC Dodge. My Catalytic Converters blew out years ago, both the combs in the manifold and in the pipe. Guess you can blame me for the Global Warming, although I don't drive much, as gas is too high. New Catalytic Converters would cost more than I paid for the car.
When I first heard about the million dollar challenge I was ready to go become a millionaire.

As for the Million Dollar Challenge, it goes like this. And I am quoting this from the web page, I am not offering anyone anything, or selling anything.

The one million dollar HHO challenge

-- "Those wishing to enter the challenge will have to pay a US$5,000 entry fee, which is obviously pocket-change compared to the $1m that is on offer and will cover the costs associated with running the challenge.
Now I really don't expect anyone to accept this challenge (but I am prepared in the event that they do).
Why won't they accept this challenge?
Because they know full-well that the claims being made are false and that nobody can deliver what is being promised."

There's a lot more to it. The vehicle has to make it for 6 months, without an HHO generator, to get the unassisted mileage, then it has to operate for 6 months with the HHO unit, and show a consistent 25% improvement, and in the end, the HHO must be removed and the emissions tested. If the vehicle cannot pass the emissions test, they don't get the million dollars. (In my eyes, there's too many "easy outs" in these rules. If someone does it and saves 30% on fuel for the entire period, they get their beat by emission tests, or engine damage. Almost like making the offer if you hit the baseball three times in a row, but afterward the ball must not be warped stained or damaged.)
I wouldn't gamble $5000 on the emissions system of any vehicle for the period of one year. And that's exactly what this "challenge" boils down to.
I would however gamble $20 that the web site, it as much of a scam as the author claims that HHO is.
I'm convinced HHO works quite well in small gasoline engines. I'm know nothing about bigger engines.
When you enter the mountains, even when you drive a on a level plane, your mileage goes to Hell! Why does this happen? Because the loss of density, or simply put less air. Turbo chargers work, because they force more air.
If you took and removed the oxygen from the fresh air, entering your engine, the engine would stall. So why wouldn't a richer oxygen content improve mileage and performance? And why wouldn't Hydrogen work as a catalyst? You can see it work in propane and acetylene torches. Little oxygen, soot and cold flame. Lots of oxygen, no soot, bright hot flame, up to a point then too much oxygen, and you lose the flame.
In my little gas car, I have a 1.5 liter engine. That means for every revolution approximately 1.5 liters of air and gas/fuel, is pulled through the engine. This little HHO unit produces less than 1 liter of HHO per minute. For formula use lets say it's producing .5 or 1/2 liter per minute. That would be 1/3 liter of Hydrogen, and 1/6 liter of Oxygen, per minute. Just idling at 550 RPM my little 1.5 liter engine sucks about 832.5 liters of air through it in one minute. That means my little HHO generator is producing 1/1665 of the air that is used in my engine at idle. That is one very tiny fragment of the gases that enter the combustion chamber.
I believe profound results can be seen. If we get the hydroxy production up. At least one unit on the market works well, but results from unit to unit will vary greatly.
Just as when we enter higher altitude and we see huge performance drops, with the Hydroxygen we can see huge performance increases provided we get generation at or above 3 liters per minute, depending on engine size, and RPM. Keep the RPM low and the Hydroxygen high, save lots of fuel, and watch fuel prices soar.
I would bet that a lot of the anti HHO people are somehow connected to oil. But of course we are all somehow connected to oil. Natural gas works, and so can Hydroxygen. Lets mix Hydroxygen with the air our engines breath, and if nothing else, just enjoy the cleaner exhaust.
If we gain mileage, lets be careful, can you imagine what might happen to our economy if, tomorrow, oil found itself with a 25% less demand? I think oil prices would go up! I just get this intuitive feeling that the price of oil has little to do with supply and demand, and more to do with the simple fact that - you can't live without it, and you're gonna pay whatever they demand.
Alternatives have them (oil) shaking in their rafters. Don't give-up. Change is in the air. Or better I say "Change is in the Hydroxygen."?

[sargon]

Keep it up guys. These systems DO WORK! The physics and chemistry have been backed by NASA since 1977. Google it if you're skeptical. These truck, especially the new ones, are going to be hard to get working with HHO fuel cells, but keep at it, and beware of buying ANY PRODUCT that is HHO related. There are good products out there, but there are far more inferior products than quality ones. Just do your research and keep your money in your pocket until your sure its a good one, preferably backed up by forums like this one. They often setup multiple sites, one to sell and multiples to "review" their product with false claims.

Kudos to you all for trying to make this old, forgotten, lied about technology, new again.

[sargon]

On a side note, beware of using caustic soda (aka Baking Soda, Lye) as an electrolyte additive. It will damage your engine over time, and when used in a hydrogen cell creates a VERY toxic substance requiring EPA certified disposal (ie most be taken to hazardous waste facility). And please, PLEASE if you have already used this in your cells, do everyone a favor and protect our/your water supply and environment and DO THE RIGHT THING! It doesn't cost very much to get rid of it properly, and many sites offer free disposal on select dates.

Use distilled vinegar instead. You will trade off less H production for a MUCH cleaner system. (Not to mention a much happier engine in 5 years time)

[h4gas.com]

Here are a few tips from early expriments in designing HHO generators. 3 typical electrolites are baking soda, sodium hydroxide , & potasium hydroxide. Of the 3 poytasium yeilds the most hydrogen but is extremely caustic and can burn your skin with permanent scars, its also a hazmat controlled substance , for these reasons I avoid it. too risky. baking soda works well in the short term but can cuase water to turn brown and discolor, likely due to impurities & and trace minerals. it makes hho gas but it also produces carbon dioxide gas in a hho generator which does not burn. sodium hydroxide works well, does not discolor water and while it is a skin burner in strong solutions, in amounts used in hho generators it can be rinsed off within a few minutes without too much irritation, much less dangerous than potassium hydroxide.
Always use only pure steam distilled water, with all minerals removed or your system will collect mineral deposits and crate a rust colored sludge that can short out system or clog it to failure. On vehicles which have oxygen (o2 ) sensors feeding data to the OBDII computer, you will need to get a device that corrects the voltage change caused by the extra input of o2 from hho generators, if you do not correct this with a device on each o2 sensor that is in front of the catalytic converter, the o2 sensors will adjust fuel mix to rich to compensate for extra o2. this may result in reduction of mpg over standard factory setup. Once you correct the o2 sensors output, your mpg should go up a lot more than 30%. my test units are acheiving 500% gains on gas engines, we are just now experimenting on deisels. these gains are not typical for the hho generators most people build, but even those should give 40 % increases if they put out enough hho. different designs have built in limitations in efficiency, usually, if you are having to draw high amperages, above 10, you are using brute force to generate hho and much of that energy is wasted as heat, which can warp or destroy pvc built units. pvc has a warp temp of 140 degrees. and the buubler often gets as ho as the generator. we have units being patented that draw as little as 1.5 amps and put out as much hho as 30 amp brute force systems we tested. Also be careful with designs which place bolts through the top of the hho generator for batt terminal connections. reason; most hho gens have a small gap at the top where hho can accumulate inside. when the unit gets hot, the bolts may loose their seal and if you should move the wires and create a spark, you will get to see how powerful hho can be firsthand. We learned that lesson early on and no longer use that config.


Since we are just now working with deisel installs, I can use some advise on a question? I have heard that hho input through the air intake can be wasted or even exploded by turbos, Im not sure I accept that but if it is true I would like some asdvise on where the best input for hho would be on a turbo deisel. If my understanding of the setup is correct, the plenum would be under positive pressure and a direct input there would require an equal or greater pressure from the hho source line. Any advise on this point would be greatly appreciated

h4gas.com

[h4gas.com]

Just read he post by mertzj. You need to put down the books and get some empirical knowledge. You say hho gens don't work? Ill bet you never built or used one. I have designed and built hundreds and they do work, when properly designed as a system for the engine they are on. My test car, 98 ford windstar 3.8 litre gas v 6 gets 70.5 mpg with my current unit. it got 19 mpg factory b4 hho. Skeptic showed up at my door challenging me to prove that. I usually do not have time for these people. But he said if I proved it. He had large cap parties interested. He did not want to risk his newer vehicle he said, so he brought his 98 ford taurus. When it got a measured 85 mpg he became an investor. I demonstrated my unit to some graduate engineers, electrical and mechanical, who worked for a solar energy company in this area. Every time I bring this subject up around some academic, I get the same old saws. you can't get more out than you put in, second law of thermo dynamics etc. etc. I just laugh, and wonder why they spent all that money on an education and got boxed into that limited, untrue view. If the academic theorem are correct, the following scenarios can not take place, yet any fool can see that they do and are viable. 1. I stand on a cliff, I toss a 5 oz rock over, it unleashes an avalanche moving 500 tons of rock down the mountain. I just used a little muscle and 5 oz to move 500 tons. certainly more out than I put in. 2. I drive along the pacific coast hwy in Ca. I toss out a lit cigarette, tiny btus, it causes a forest fire that unleashes millions of btus. Again more output than input. Well the educated tap dancer says "uh that's releasing stored energy". DUH what do you think hydrogen is? And in case you subscribe to the academic myth that there is no such thing as over unity, perpetual motion, consider this, in everything that exists around you, ( even around academics), molecules, protons, electrons all are spinning and moving. they have since the beginning of time and they will till the end of it. they are perpetual motion defined. your theories are wrong. your arrogant opinion about hydrogen is also wrong, I am currently in process of patenting several processes which dissassociate hydrogen from water with very little energy, so little in fact that it changes the status of hydrogen to the cheapest form, and cleanest form of energy, other than solar or wind. Oil production can not even come close. I get a line of skeptics like you each week who have never even been near an hho setup who quote empty headed theories from the same incorrect dogma. It becomes quite annoying. It also explains why most of the breakthroughs come from the guys who buck the "official party line" that is drummed into academics so they dont threaten the staus quo. If we went with the official views in history, nothing we have taken for granted today would exist in our culture and we would still accept that the sun revolves around the earth. So please do us all a favor and build an hho unit or two and use it before you state such emphatic crap. There is one old saw that is true, those who can't, teach. Those who can, do.

[DBLR]

If you can prove the law of thermo dynamics wrong then Please do so right now. If you can get a cars fuel mileage to increase by 500% lets see it done. Your the one making a claim of how so many people with academic degrees are wrong, so when are you going to prove them wrong? Don't just hid behind your computer keyboard get out in the world and prove them Wrong! You keep saying that you can prove a lot of people wrong, lets see you do it on the national news, say 2 weeks from today? Come on look at all the Fame and Fortune you will have the minute you get on TV and can prove so many Scientist wrong. What are you waiting for?

__________________
2006 Ram 2500 Big Horn Edition Auto 5.9L Mineral Gray Met. Quad Cab SB 4X4 SRW 3.73's

[patracy]

Broken up your post to state some facts you're leaving out...

Originally Posted by h4gas.com

1. I stand on a cliff, I toss a 5 oz rock over, it unleashes an avalanche moving 500 tons of rock down the mountain. I just used a little muscle and 5 oz to move 500 tons. certainly more out than I put in.

Very true, YOU didn't put the energy into it to move the 500 tons. Gravity did. Have you figured out how to incorporate the forces of gravity/magnetic/solar/or thermal energy to lessen the burden on the vehicles charging system to increase output? That'd be the way your example would work in an automotive setting.


2. I drive along the pacific coast hwy in Ca. I toss out a lit cigarette, tiny btus, it causes a forest fire that unleashes millions of btus. Again more output than input. Well the educated tap dancer says "uh that's releasing stored energy".

You just pointed out the flaw in your own example.


DUH what do you think hydrogen is?

The simplest element known to man. NOT stored energy. But rather a element that is highly combustible.

And in case you subscribe to the academic myth that there is no such thing as over unity, perpetual motion, consider this, in everything that exists around you, ( even around academics), molecules, protons, electrons all are spinning and moving. they have since the beginning of time and they will till the end of it. they are perpetual motion defined.

True, but a mechanical over unity or perpetual motion device has a huge obstacle to overcome. Friction.


your theories are wrong. your arrogant opinion about hydrogen is also wrong, I am currently in process of patenting several processes which dissassociate hydrogen from water with very little energy, so little in fact that it changes the status of hydrogen to the cheapest form, and cleanest form of energy, other than solar or wind. Oil production can not even come close. I get a line of skeptics like you each week who have never even been near an hho setup who quote empty headed theories from the same incorrect dogma. It becomes quite annoying. It also explains why most of the breakthroughs come from the guys who buck the "official party line" that is drummed into academics so they dont threaten the staus quo. If we went with the official views in history, nothing we have taken for granted today would exist in our culture and we would still accept that the sun revolves around the earth. So please do us all a favor and build an hho unit or two and use it before you state such emphatic crap. There is one old saw that is true, those who can't, teach. Those who can, do.

You do all that, and I'll happily buy a "free" energy machine

Note, I'm running WVO/JetA/Propane in my diesel. I love not paying at the pump to drive it. I'd love to further my range/reduce my cost. But I just can't buy into your claims of 200% mileage increases. I've personally gained 10mpg (about 100%) running a HEAVY dose of propane. Up to 29mpg from 19mpg on diesel. But the volume of propane used would mean it'd be a hefty burden on the charging system of the truck to produce those numbers.

Furthermore, your user name looks to be for your website. I'm going to have to call it, but you're a phisher/troll/spammer here only to promote your wares. There's nothing wrong with trying to promote your biz. But reading between the lines, you've got a very good reason to post up new on a board into a thread about this. Praising how your setup is more efficient than anyone elses.

I might be wrong, but that's how I see it. Note, I don't have a PHD, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night.

__________________
1999 2500 4x4 Club Cab Sport. ADRENALINE/pulse , BHAF, FBD 150 sticks, full set of gauges, FP light, Holley Blue pump, 1/2" big line kit, Draw straw, 3" glasspack, TC lockup switch, Stealth VP plate, Heated WVO setup, poor man's 'pane setup, BD TC, BD VB, Billet input, Derale pan.
Parts to come: turbo and bigger exhaust, both seriously needed now!