My Magdrive HHO test Results

[JyRO]

Fellers,

I'm still watching this issue. Regarding what Tree DR just said (I'll eventually make a point I hope) I've heard that gassers have better luck with adding H and improving mileage than diesels. That's what I've heard. I don't know factually. Is it true?

To my point: Tree DR mentioned being able to generate more H, which he thinks may be necessary. In the case that gassers do benefit more, could it be due to the vast differences in ignition? A gasser will have a spark plug fire some set degrees BTDC. Maybe like 15 degrees or so (I forget). And a spark is theoretically initiating fuel burn based on HEAT generated by the spark, not by the spark itself. And when the gas ignites it is more explosive than diesel.

From what I understand about our Cummins engines, the diesel fuel is injected into hot pressurized air (from the compression stroke of course) near TDC. Could the H be having a problem being properly ignited due to a) the shape of the diesel fuel's ignition (sort of like a mushroom), b) the temps of the igniting diesel fuel as compared to the heat of a spark, and c) not enough H to take advantage of the differences of the fuel ignition timing differences between gas and diesel?

I'm thinking out loud here, maybe this has been considered. I apologize if it has.

- JyRO

[Tree DR]

You'r asking some of the same questions I had. I keep asking people about it and found someone with a phisics back ground. The ignition is not an issue. Timeing can affect the burn of course. What seems to be most improtant is amount or H with ignition at the right time. It will work but not as well if your timeing is off.
Looking and reading on the web link why do they think that plates between the pos. and negative that are connected to neither are going to help? I'll have to ask a few physics people about that one.

__________________
05 3500 4x4

[bob campbell]

I built and installed a flat plate HHO generator on my 1995 Dodge 3500 pickup. The generator draws about 25A and delivers about 1.8 LPM. I ran the HHO into the aircleaner box before the turcocharger. It might be my imagination, but I think the tubo charger is running a little hotter and I think the engine may also be running a little warmer too. Both are still well within the ideal operating range so it's not a concern. I just wanted to include as much information as I could.

My MPG results are exactly as they were before adding the HHO. No improvment at all.

Am I feeding the HHO into the correct locatation? Is there anything else I should be aware of? Do I need to produce more HHO?

Bob in Chico

---

Last edited by bob campbell : 07-25-2008 at 12:48 PM. Reason: More accurate info

[dbm99vegas]

Ive built a HHO sytem also but am currently testing it in a gas engine. It is on a ford 460 and some of the early units and tests showed little to no improvement. With a little knowledge and an ope mind we have got the improvement up to 3+ MPG witl more changes and test to come. It is a valid science but still not exact. It takes time. The most recent system is a 6 cell that is capable of producing more HHO due to the extra cells producing together. That was a gain. Then experimenting with the point of injection seems to cause the most change in MPG. Larger displacement engines require more HHO to show any change. The injection point being as close as possible to the final intake seems to work better. Remeber that th HHO is a seperated form of water turned gas but given to much distance to travel that gas will drop back to water and lose the combustibule propertys that you look for. Will post more as results keep coming in. Will be building a 2nd 6 cell for my 99 CTD next.

[jaron_denson]

Having obtained a degree in Physics and Mathematics and working on a Graduate Mechanical Engineering degree currently,I can definitively tell you that it is impossible to obtain any sort of improvement. I can tell you that I have never used this unit but I know how it works, at the same time I am not claiming I am Albert Einstein either. I think everyone has heard the phrase "Energy cannot be created or destroyed but can change from one form to another". In this case the energy is simply be converted. The HHO unit is powered by electricity that is created by the charging system of the vehicle, the alternator. The alternator is a mechanically driven unit that changes mechanical energy into electric potential. When an electrical system is drawing amperage the alternator must work harder creating more of a parasitic load on the motor. So you are using gas to charge your car and with the HHO unit create hydrogen. It is a simple fact in the science community that everyone knows that using hydrogen as an energy source is a bunch of crap because it is not available in nature in commercially extractable method. It has to be produced, and hydrogen must be produced the same way as the mag drive on a larger scale. So large coal plants provide the power to separate the hydrogen from water, effectively getting less energy out than what was originally put into the system. So you may think that well it is really no big deal it is changing one form to another, but remember that it is not an equal transfer because alternators have friction in the bearings and dissipate some of the energy in the form of heat through heat sinks in the alternator. So anyways just my opinion, not knocking it but from a scientific approach it does not make any sense. You can read a book called "Out of Gas, The end of the Age of Oil" by David Goodstein, he was my professor at Caltech, it explains this in an easily digestible format that anyone can read.

[JyRO]

Originally Posted by jaron_denson

Having obtained a degree in Physics and Mathematics and working on a Graduate Mechanical Engineering degree currently, ... "Out of Gas, The end of the Age of Oil" by David Goodstein, he was my professor at Caltech, it explains this in an easily digestible format that anyone can read.

/\
Yada yada yada, UNPOSSIBLE.

So anyway, I'm thinking +5 mpg sounds doable for one of these here contraptions.

[jaron_denson]

Originally Posted by JyRO

/\
Yada yada yada, UNPOSSIBLE.

So anyway, I'm thinking +5 mpg sounds doable for one of these here contraptions.

What are you the inventor of this piece of crap? Or do you have too much pride and are so full of yourself to take some advice from someone with an education? Like I stated I do not know everything but when you go to school for six years to learn about engineering alternative energy well than, whatever, you don't have to take my advice or believe me. I am just trying to save everyone here by getting fooled by the snake oil salesman. I mean come on free energy, the government would have already found a way to tax it!!....JYRO or anyone else, here is some advice for you, Search "three laws of thermodynamics". What is the first one? There is a reason they are called laws and not ideas or theories(Hint: Its because they have never been proven wrong!). Then search "Magdrive scam", you will find more unsatisfied customers than satisfied ones along with arguments similar to mine. Why wouldn't major car manufactures put these on cars already to claim better mileage? It's so cheap and effective right? For the rest of you don't be ignorant and think of the idea that I have presented before spending $500 -$5000 and laugh at people who are as ignorant as JYRO who will be hearing it from his wife later and taking it in the from the mag drive. For those who bought them already, I am sorry I did not get to you in time, you were brave for trying.

[JyRO]

Originally Posted by jaron_denson

... Like I stated I do not know everything ...

True...

One of the things you don't know, is how to recognize sarcasm. One of the things you DO know, is how to stick your big foot in your loud mouth.

Maybe if you completely read the history of this thread you would have seen that I have been the skeptical one all along. And that another poster or two has mentioned alternator load increasing from powering this device and offsetting any possibility of gains. Instead of skipping to the end and running in here at the last minute and holding your "education" up in everybody's face a trying to become the new hero.

One of the many things I've learned is that regardless if these guys on this and other boards that may have never completed a high school education, or have multiple PhD's, is that the level of *intelligence* is WAY under-recognized. The guys on this board and the things they know and are capable of make me feel mighty small at times. I put away my confidence issues and remove the peanut butter from my ears, apply visine, and read, learn, try to let it absorb into the gray matter, and lastly try some of the things I read about with my own 2 hands.

This device is just one that I've not had confidence in that it would work. I'll ignore your harshness based on your inability to recognize sarcasm, if you'll excuse my harshness based on my lack of NOT being well mannered.

[jaron_denson]

Originally Posted by JyRO

True...

One of the things you don't know... I put away my confidence issues and remove the peanut butter from my ears, apply visine, and read, learn, try to let it absorb into the gray matter, and lastly try some of the things I read about with my own 2 hands.

This device is just one that I've not had confidence in that it would work. I'll ignore your harshness based on your inability to recognize sarcasm, if you'll excuse my harshness based on my lack of NOT being well mannered.

Well then excuse me for the harshness, definitely harder to pick up on sarcasm in written form....I did read the previous pages before coming in at the end, and I interpreted your thoughts as the hopeful skeptic. I do not perceive myself as some sort of hero, or more intelligent than anyone else because it is my belief that everyone is intelligent just in different areas. Intelligence does not equal education at all (trust me I graduated with some real dumb asses, not by my standards either). It was not my intention to flaunt my education but to simply state that I am somewhat qualified to take an informed position on the subject, just as a qualifed mechanic is able to give someone advice or work on a car. This particular realm I happened to know something about so I thought I could offer my knowledge to the group with out repercussion, sorry I don't know you and know your humor, it is only text based correspondence. There are many things I do not know about dodge diesels that is why I subscribe to this site to get help from people, maybe like yourself, who have expertise in this area.

Furthermore I have no issues letting it all go because you clarified your true intentions, I mean we are all on the same team here right? We are all into dodge trucks so whatever.... Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[WorkhorseDiesel]

Popular Mechanics did a test with one of the HHO generators on the market. After weeks and weeks of testing, their results, were as expected. NO significant gain whatsoever. There is an idea for a system that works, but it isn't the common HHO generator that uses baking soda as an electrolyte. The kits that are based on having to add ANYTHING other than tap water are simple electrolysis and will only produce the equivalent energy coming out at best. Energy in = Energy out. There are currently 4 systems that have been proven to work but most are not readily available and most can't simply be made with parts from Home Depot or Lowe's. The Japanese are about to introduce a car that runs entirely on water and that uses an HHO type generator, but the fundamentals are completely different. There is even one website offering $1 million dollars to the person that is using an HHO generator and who can PROVE (through rigorous testing) that their device will produce at least a 25% gain in fuel efficiency. So far, NOBODY has come forward to challenge for the million. Kinda makes you wonder WHY? Maybe cause nobody has seen a consistent gain like that? Hope this helps.

__________________
2001.5 White 2500 Reg-cab • 4x4 • NV4500 • 4.10 • BHAF • WALBRO GSL392 • Edge Juice + Attitude • VALAIR HD OFE • Scangauge II • 315 Cooper S/T's • Optimas • custom black grille & blue graphics • ** Diesel Fuel Treatment is here **

[Tree DR]

Thomas Edison never did anything either. That's sarcasm. I've had 15% gains on several vehicles mostly gas but some diesels also. Consistancy has varied, some were consistant though.

__________________
05 3500 4x4

[mertzj]

Originally Posted by jaron_denson

Having obtained a degree in Physics and Mathematics and working on a Graduate Mechanical Engineering degree currently,I can definitively tell you that it is impossible to obtain any sort of improvement. I can tell you that I have never used this unit but I know how it works, at the same time I am not claiming I am Albert Einstein either. I think everyone has heard the phrase "Energy cannot be created or destroyed but can change from one form to another". In this case the energy is simply be converted. The HHO unit is powered by electricity that is created by the charging system of the vehicle, the alternator. The alternator is a mechanically driven unit that changes mechanical energy into electric potential. When an electrical system is drawing amperage the alternator must work harder creating more of a parasitic load on the motor. So you are using gas to charge your car and with the HHO unit create hydrogen. It is a simple fact in the science community that everyone knows that using hydrogen as an energy source is a bunch of crap because it is not available in nature in commercially extractable method. It has to be produced, and hydrogen must be produced the same way as the mag drive on a larger scale. So large coal plants provide the power to separate the hydrogen from water, effectively getting less energy out than what was originally put into the system. So you may think that well it is really no big deal it is changing one form to another, but remember that it is not an equal transfer because alternators have friction in the bearings and dissipate some of the energy in the form of heat through heat sinks in the alternator. So anyways just my opinion, not knocking it but from a scientific approach it does not make any sense. You can read a book called "Out of Gas, The end of the Age of Oil" by David Goodstein, he was my professor at Caltech, it explains this in an easily digestible format that anyone can read.

Anybody else find people with degrees in physics annoying? I know several people that have setups on gas trucks that are claiming to get close to 30. It only increases the amount of oxygen to better burn the gas. Thing is you have to change the map ond 02 sensors. Looks like a new site but check out My Community - Index I have yet to hear of any improvments on diesel however. But my 06 mega cab averages anywhere from 21 on the interstate to 27 keeping it under 60. 30 would be nice tho so someone needs to figure it out.