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Oil again

6K views 23 replies 7 participants last post by  Grogg 
#1 ·
Is this good enough for the Cummins? Mostly just wondering about the weight.

 
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#5 · (Edited)
Yes, it is good enough, and it will work. The only question is, will it work for your type of driving? Do your own homework, rather than listen to those on here, who actually dont know, and are going on misinformation.

The new Rotella T5 10W-30 is a CK-4 oil. It is backwards compatible with CJ-4 oils, which is approved for Cummins engines. It also passes the requirements of the Cummins CES 20081 standard. So yes.... it is ok to run it. If you tow/haul heavy and/or in high heats areas, a 40 weight oil may be better, or full synthetic.

Like I said, do your homework. Run it for 5,000 miles, and send a sample to Blackstone to have it analyzed. People talk too much smack about oils.... its not that difficult. I run Delvac 15W-40 because between the sales at Rural King and Mobil's great rebate offers, I get it for $7/gal. So cheap doesnt always mean its crap. I change it annually with 11K - 13K miles on it. Blackstone's analysis come back great. $21/yr for my oil.... no reason for me to run anything more expensive or change any sooner. But, my truck sees normal driving, very little towing and hauling.

The Rotella T5 10W-30 has the same qualities/specs as the 15W-40 (other than viscosity)... it just a different viscosity. It is a good quality oil, no matter what people say. With the specs it has, it is ok to run in EGR trucks and even EGR/DPF. The only thing I think that "wasnt" ok, was offroad engines that are burning the older low sulfur diesel, and not the new ULSD. Here are the specs on it, and make sure to click on the link in red about halfway down the page, to open the brochure and read it:

Shell ROTELLA® T5 Synthetic Blend Heavy Duty Engine Oil | Shell ROTELLA®
 
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#6 ·
Its the perfect oil for a diesel that requires 10w-30.
sooo, its not good enough for a engine with different requirements

It is not a recommended viscosity for our cummins.
Use only the viscosity recommended in the owners manual.

like suggested above, runn it then do a test, Why?
the engine manufacture has all ready done the testing.

using a oil that is not in the Specs recommended by the manufactures could lead to your warranty being voided.

You can find the oil with the proper viscosity on sale too.

i just used the "new" T4 15w-40 in mine.
 
#7 · (Edited)
It IS in the specs of the manuf, as the link I posted shows. Im not going to argue about this. Just because someone says it wont work, doesnt mean squat. The specs that have been published show this oil exceeds what Cummins recommends. The specs are in the manual, even though the viscosity isnt. Thats simple.... when my truck was new in 2004, there was no HDEO in a 10W-30 viscosity, so.... its common sense there is no 10W-30 oil listed in my manual. They arent going to send out brand new manuals, every time there is a new oil comes out that meats their specs. Please show me a link, where Cummins has tested Rotella T5 10W-30, and it failed. Cummins doesnt test every oil. They list a standard (CES 20081 specs) they approve, and if the oil meets or exceeds that standard, no matter WHAT the viscosity... then its ok to use. Here is yet another link proving my point, where Cummins says the engines that are run on road (not the high sulfur off road fuel) are fine running on oils that meet the CES 20081 requirements:
http://www.plaisance-pratique.com/IMG/pdf/SBN_Oil_3810340__5jun13.pdf

There is more good reading on the topic here:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2093720

And of course there are oil analysis results all over the internet that show the 10W-30 safe to run. The proof is in black and white.... and trumps any opinion that the oil shouldnt be run. If people dont "want" to run it, thats their opinion. I dont run it myself, so its not like I have a vested interest. But there is a difference in not wanting to run it, and telling people they cant because its not an approved/good oil. Ive posted links proving it is approved because it exceeds the standards Cummins requires. It doesnt matter what I think, or what anyone else thinks... its what is in black and white.
 
#8 ·
I've read all bob has to say, him and his racing engines with there completely diffrent oil requirments.
The viscosity recommendations it doesn't recomend that visicosity, that " type of oil" could be just fine in the correct viscosity. .

Now, are we so narrow minded that we belive all diesel oil is intended for the engine you have?
With all of the small diesels and makes with diffrent tolerances and oil requirments that the EPA is mandating come to market.
It may make a diffrence.
But then it is your engine you can run water instead if oil for all I know.

The new T4 in 15w-40 is the backward compatible "Dino" oil in the correct viscosity.
And of course a syhentic in the winter, for some.
 
#9 ·
Again, nothing but "your opinion" and you trying to push your beliefs and agenda on people. You are always the one saying "show me the proof". Well, you were shown, you just choose to ignore it.

IT MEETS CUMMINS CES 20081 REQUIREMENTS!!! So it doesnt matter if its a 0W-20 viscosity..... IT PASSED THE TESTS and meets their requirements! You saying its the "wrong" type, doesnt change that!

Cummins says this oil meets the requirements of our engines, I will take their word over the word of someone who has been banned countless times from this forum, for talking down to them and trying to brow beat them into seeing things his way. Which is exactly what youre doing here... no proof.. simply opinion, stating the oil wont work, when the engine manuf says it will.

To the OP, just as choosing between 5W-40 and 15W-40, its about climate/temps/use of the truck. Put your mind at ease and call Shell and talk to them :smile2:
 
#10 ·
That is fine and dandy, it was you whom was banned for trolling.
I don't see that viscosity listed in my owners manual.
That also warns about the warranty being voided.


The presence of viscosity information on almost all lubricant marketers’ technical literature is an indication that it also is important in the marketing of lubricants. Original equipment manufacturers often specify the lubricant to be used in their equipment by product type and viscosity. Lubricant marketers usually sell their lubricants according to specific viscosity grades, such as SAE 15W40, ISO 46 and AGMA 3.
It is clear that – for the majority of the players in the lubricant industry – the proper viscosity of a fluid is the most important attribute in proper lubrication. There are several reasons for this, including, but not limited to:
• Viscosity affects fluid film thickness under certain conditions of temperature and load in lubrication applications.
• Viscosity affects heat generation and removal in bearings, cylinders and gears.
• Viscosity determines the ease with which machines can be started in low-temperature conditions or
can be kept running in high-temperature conditions.
• Viscosity can be used to control a fluid’s sealing ability, which results in lower consumption.
 
#12 · (Edited)
That is fine and dandy,
I don't see that viscosity listed in my owners manual.
That also warns about the warranty being voided.


The presence of viscosity information on almost all lubricant marketers’ technical literature is an indication that it also is important in the marketing of lubricants. Original equipment manufacturers often specify the lubricant to be used in their equipment by product type and viscosity. Lubricant marketers usually sell their lubricants according to specific viscosity grades, such as SAE 15W40, ISO 46 and AGMA 3.
It is clear that – for the majority of the players in the lubricant industry – the proper viscosity of a fluid is the most important attribute in proper lubrication. There are several reasons for this, including, but not limited to:
• Viscosity affects fluid film thickness under certain conditions of temperature and load in lubrication applications.
• Viscosity affects heat generation and removal in bearings, cylinders and gears.
• Viscosity determines the ease with which machines can be started in low-temperature conditions or
can be kept running in high-temperature conditions.
• Viscosity can be used to control a fluid’s sealing ability, which results in lower consumption.
COMPLETELY irrelevant information. Your opinion.... nothing from Cummins saying 10W-30 wont work, or will void the warranty. If you actually knew even 10% of what you think you know, you would know that 10W-30 WAS the recommended oil in Cummins for a good while. Again, either show me a LINK (NOT your opinion or something you supposedly copied and pasted) that shows the PROOF that I have linked.... is either wrong or outdated, or stop responding to me.
 
#11 ·
Lubricant viscosity or consistency is a physical measurement of a lubricant’s internal resistance to flow. It can truly affect how the lubricant will function in a piece of equipment. Fortunately, organizations like ASTM, SAE, AGMA, ISO and others have created standards for lubricant viscosity and consistency that are to be used as guidelines when selecting the proper lubricant. If the wrong lubricant viscosity is selected for an application, the chances for equipment failure are dramatically increased. Therefore, the best rule is to always check the original equipment manufacturer’s manual for lubricant viscosity recommendations.
If the OEM makes no recommendations, then the next step is to consider the operating speed, temperature and load of the application to be lubricated. Finally, after making a lubricating product selection, it is important to
LE WHITE PAPER
Putting the Simple Back into Viscosity
closely monitor the equipment to ensure the right choice was made. If possible, visually observe the moving parts to verify that a sufficient lubricant film is present to protect them. If not, listen for any unusual load grinding, chattering or squalling noises, which often are indications of metal-to-metal contact. Finally, one last technique is to contact lubricant manufacturers for recommendations. They often can provide technical support for proper fluid or grease selection.
Very simplistically, viscosity is a measure of a lubricant’s physical resistance to flow, yet it is probably the most important property of a lubricant.

It did pass it does get the go from cummins, if ,,,again ,,,If ,,,,your owners manual recomends that viscosity.
Mine, does not.
 
#14 · (Edited)
And youre a delusional know-it-all who still has done nothing but copy and paste irrelevant information about viscosity, while i presented facts on black and white from both Shell, and Cummins. I chased facts.... you chased your delusional ego.
 
#15 ·
For what it's worth.... nearly all over the road diesels toting 80,000 pound loads these days are factory filling with 10W-30 heavy duty diesel oil. The peak valvetrain loads and requirements for thermal stability has never been greater. It would stand to reason that viscosity has little to do, therefore, with how well an engine oil protects. I mean.... by this logic shouldn't big rigs use 40W-60 and railroad diesel locomotives use 80W-140, and ocean liners would be shoveling asphalt in the sump of those monster ocean liner diesels?

(Diesel locomotives pulling multiple thousand ton loads only use 20W-40, but now we're really comparing grapefruits to grapes :))

To say nothing of the fact that the oleodynamic barrier isn't protecting your metal parts from wear by and large, it's the anti wear additives which oxidize and bond to the metal, and there's nothing about the viscosity rating that indicates which oil has more of those than another.

Bottom line, if the oil meets the specifications your engine calls for and you operate within the manufacturer's service intervals... well, all that's left is the viscosity argument, and the heavy duty trucking industry has already spoken there.

Personally, I'll be trying 10W-30 HDEO soon :)
 
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#16 ·
For what it's worth.... nearly all over the road diesels toting 80,000 pound loads these days are factory filling with 10W-30 heavy duty diesel oil. The peak valvetrain loads and requirements for thermal stability has never been greater. It would stand to reason that viscosity has little to do, therefore, with how well an engine oil protects. I mean.... by this logic shouldn't big rigs use 40W-60 and railroad diesel locomotives use 80W-140, and ocean liners would be shoveling asphalt in the sump of those monster ocean liner diesels?

(Diesel locomotives pulling multiple thousand ton loads only use 20W-40, but now we're really comparing grapefruits to grapes :))

To say nothing of the fact that the oleodynamic barrier isn't protecting your metal parts from wear by and large, it's the anti wear additives which oxidize and bond to the metal, and there's nothing about the viscosity rating that indicates which oil has more of those than another.

Bottom line, if the oil meets the specifications your engine calls for and you operate within the manufacturer's service intervals... well, all that's left is the viscosity argument, and the heavy duty trucking industry has already spoken there.
nah, all that makes WAY too much sense, and provides WAY too much proof :hehe:

Personally, I'll be trying 10W-30 HDEO soon :)
I will be trying it also, but will wait to see what the prices are on the new spec'd oils in December. Then I may try either Delvac or Rotella in the 10W-30 synthetic blend :grin2:
 
#17 ·
The correctly formulated multigrade oil
is the ideal engine lubricant for a Cummins® engine.

The selection of oil of the correct viscosity is extremely important for optimum
performance and for maximum engine life.

Cummins Inc. recommends the use of multigrade lubricating oils with viscosity grades
for the ambient temperatures indicated. Only.

Cummins Inc. Recommended SAE Oil Viscosity Grades
Cummins Inc. primary recommendation is
for the use of 15W40 multigrade for normal
operation at ambient temperatures above -15°C [5°F]. The use of multigrade oil reduces
deposit formation, improves engine cranking in low temperature conditions, and
increases engine durability by maintaining lubrication during high
temperature operating conditions. Since multigrade oils have been
shown to provide approximately 30 percent
lower oil consumption, compared with monograde oils, it is important to use multigrade oils to be certain your engine will meet applicable emissions requirements. While the preferred viscosity grade is 15W-40, lower viscositymultigrades can be used in colder
climates. See Figure 1: Recommended SAE Oil Viscosity Grades at Ambient
Temperatures. Oils meeting API CI-4 and CJ\-4 and a 10W30 viscosity grade,
must meet a minimum High Temperature / High Shear viscosity of
3.5 cSt., and ring wear / liner wear
requirements of Cummins Inc. and Mack tests.
Thus, they can by be used over a wider
temperature range than 10W30 oi
ls meeting older API performance classifications. As
these oils will have directionally thinner
oil films than 15W40 oils, top quality
Fleetguard® filters
must be used above 20°C [70°F]. Some oil suppliers might claim
better fuel economy for these oils. Cummins Inc. can neither approve nor disapprove
any product \not manufactured by Cummins Inc.


WARNING
An SAE 10W30 designation on a product is a viscosity designation
only. This designation alone does not imply that the product meets
Cummins Inc. requirements. Only 10W30 oils with diesel performance
credentials listed in table 1 can be used in Cummins® Engines if the
reduced ambient temperature indicated in Figure 1 is observed
. Only
10W30 oils meeting CES 20078 (API CI-4) and CES 20081 (API CJ-
4) can be used in the ambient temperature range similar to 15W40 oils.

Synthetic Oils
Use of “synthetic engine oils” (those made with API group 3 or group 4 base stocks) is
permitted subject to the same performance and viscosity

limitations of petroleum (mineral) based engine oils. The same oil change intervals
must be applied to synthetic oils that are applied to petroleum (mineral) based engine oils.

The primary function of the engine oil is to
lubricate moving parts. The oil forms a
hydrodynamic film between metal surfaces,
preventing metal-to-metal contact and
reducing friction. When the oil film is
not sufficient to prevent metal-to-metal contact, the
following occurs:
Heat is generated through friction
Local welding occurs
Metal transfer results in scuffing or seizing.
Extreme Pressure Wear Control

Shock-Damping
The oil film between contacting surfaces
provides cushioning and shock-damping. The
damping effect is essential to highly loaded areas such as the bearings, pistons,
connecting rods, and the gear train.

If the oil viscosity is too
low, the engine experiences:
Increased wear from metal-to-metal contact
Increased oil consumption and leakage
Increased engine noise.
Some oil suppliers might claim better fuel
economy for the lower viscosity oils. Lower
viscosity results in lower oil film thickness.
Therefore, Cummins Inc.
has required that all
multi-viscosity 30 weight (xW30) oils
registered under CES 20078 (API CI-4)
must meet
the minimum High Temperature / High Shear
viscosity of 3.5 cSt. These can be used
over a wider temperature range than other 10W30 or 5W30 oils. As these oils will have directionally thinner oil films than 15W40 oils


http://www.kleenoilusa.com/pdf/warranty/Cummins-Oil_ServiceBulletin_May-07.pdf
 
#18 ·
I swear, you post crap, just to hear yourself talk and boost your own ego.... because you posted this long winded post, full of irrelevant crap. In fact, even though you keep arguing that the oil wont work, you actually contradicted yourself and agreed when you posted that.... and this is YOUR own quote mind you:

Only
10W30 oils meeting CES 20078 (API CI-4) and CES 20081 (API CJ-
4) can be used in the ambient temperature range similar to 15W40 oils.
It doesnt matter what you think, what you post, or what irrelevant crap you try to beat people over the head with.... the FACTs are the oil meets the CES 20081 specs that YOU YOURSELF just posted, and therefore Cummins says it can be used. Specs that Cummins says.... if the oil meets those specs, its ok to run. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS!! Im sorry you dont agree and therefore refuse to accept that, but the proof has been shown that you are wrong. Nuff said!
 
#20 ·
Trying to have an adult conversation with you is useless. You have the mentality of a 5yr old, and either people agree with you, or they are wrong. I have shown on more than one occasion in this thread where you are wrong. You refuse to accept the facts, as the facts dont agree with your beliefs. so, you end up spreading lies and mis-information, to back your beliefs.

The FACT is that Cummins says ANY.... ANY OIL.. meetings the CES20081 specs, CAN BE RUN IN THE ENGINE! It does NOT matter what viscosity that oil is! Again, Im sorry you cant understand that, but thats on you, not everyone else. You yourself even posted that IF THE 10W-30 MEETS THESE SPECS IT CAN BE USED IN PLACE OF 15W-40!!!

As far as the 10W-30 T5 NOT being in my manual.... again, Im sorry you cant, or you refuse to understand this.... but SHELL ROTELLA T5 10W-30 SYNTHETIC BLEND WASNT AROUND IN 2004 AND DIDNT HIT THE MARKET TILL 2009 OR SO!!! So how could this oil be listed in the manual, when it didnt even exist at the time the manual was printed? Its just that simple. Its not that you cant understand it, its that you refuse to understand it.

Im done with you, youre ridiculous. The facts have been presented to you, but your arrogance knows better than Shell or Cummins themselves, or the people who have run the oil and had samples tested with great results. Hell, you even contradicted yourself, and refuse to admit it when confronted with it. I guess I will have to go back to blocking you, as I cant stand to watch you lie to people who ask simple questions. If you dont like the oil or dont want to use it... thats your right. What isnt your right is lying to people because youre arrogant and stubborn.
 
#21 ·
Fact,
Cummins Inc. primary recommendation is
for the use of 15W40 multigrade for normal
operation at ambient temperatures above -15°C [5°F].

While thepreferred viscosity grade is 15W-40, lower viscosity multigrades 5W-40 can be used in colder
climates. .
yes
you need to use a oil that meets the CES20081 specs
which has no bearing on if it is the correct weight/viscosity.
Cummins Inc. has established a number of Cummins Engineering Standards (CES)
which describe the performance
levels of engine oils that must be used in various
engines
Engines using Exhaust Gas Recirculation
(EGR) and Exhaust Aftertreatment must
operate on Ultra-low Sulfur Diesel (15 ppm Sulfur). Use of oils meeting the requirements
of CES-20081 will provide the
longest maintenance intervals for the aftertreatmentsystem. For drain interval and maintenance interval recommendations, consult the
Operation and Maintenance Manual for the particular engine model and duty cycle.
Engines with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) can use lubricants meeting CES 20078
(API CI-4). For drain interval recommendations, consult the Operation and Maintenance
Manual for the particular engine model and duty cycle. CES 20081(API Cj-4) can be
used when 15 ppm sulfur fuel is also used.



10W30 oils meeting API performance classifications. these oils will have directionally thinner oil films than 15W40









 
#24 ·
Fact,
Cummins Inc. primary recommendation is
for the use of 15W40 multigrade for normal
operation at ambient temperatures above -15°C [5°F].

While thepreferred viscosity grade is 15W-40, lower viscosity multigrades 5W-40 can be used in colder climates. .

yes
you need to use a oil that meets the CES20081 specs
which has no bearing on if it is the correct weight/viscosity.
Okay, riddle me this: if a 5W-40 is approved in colder conditions and won't cause unacceptable wear according to the manufacturer what leads you to believe that 10W-30 HDEO just won't? Because it's not an XW-40?

5W-40 oil starts as a much thinner base oil than a 15W-40 or a 10W-30, then the manufacturer adds in enough viscosity index improvers to prevent the base oil breaking down at operating temperature. Tests are done against several manufacturer's specs to determine viscosity at several temperatures and the oil's ability to protect under the load conditions defined in the test. So: If it meets the specification's ability for wear prevention, it passes.

Cummins probably indicates a single specification with varying viscosity in variable conditions because it's not feasible to test every oil and therefore provide a comprehensive list of which oils meet the spec at various temperatures; instead providing some guidelines that are safe enough to account for variances in manufacturing and also allow the average owner to pick something off the shelf that will work just fine.

Otherwise, look at what Caterpillar does: They spec out the minimum HTHS viscosity for the base oil AND what spec it has to meet AND what viscosities to use for which temperature ranges.

Besides, before XW-40 oils came about, all diesels used 10W-30 - even B Series 5.9 Cummins engine before Dodge put 'em into RAM trucks.

From the same link you posted (http://www.kleenoilusa.com/pdf/warranty/Cummins-Oil_ServiceBulletin_May-07.pdf), the emphasis is mine:

Cummins said:
Oils meeting API CI-4 and CJ-4 and a 10W30 viscosity grade, must meet a minimum High Temperature / High Shear viscosity of 3.5 cSt., and ring wear / liner wear requirements of Cummins Inc. and Mack tests. Thus, they can by be used over a wider temperature range than 10W30 oils meeting older API performance classifications.
Looks like Cummins says as long as a 10W-30 HDEO meets the HTHS and wear requirements (part of running the test to meet the spec) it's just as serviceable as 15W-40.

Of course all of this discussion in theory is nice; how do ANYONE actually know if 15W-40 is actually protecting their engine well enough? Without oil analysis, you're still working on an assumption. It's been shown in multiple analyses that a properly formulated 10W-30 HDEO will protect just as well as a 15W-40 in identical conditions, on an identical engine, that's reasonable enough proof for me to believe that there's more to the oil argument than the viscosity.

My $0.10
 
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#22 ·
Does your owners manual call for 3w-30 or 10w-30
mine doesn't but they do make engines that do call for it.

Recommended SAE Oil Viscosity Grades vs. Ambient Temperatures



Oil acts as a combustion seal
filling the uneven surfaces of the cylinder liner, piston,
valve stem, and other internal engine components.
Shock-Damping
The oil film between contacting surfaces
provides cushioning and shock-damping. The
damping effect is essential to highly loaded areas such as the bearings, pistons,
connecting rods, and the gear train.

The selection of oil of the correct viscosity is extremely important for optimum
performance and for maximum engine life.
If the oil viscosity is too
low, the engine experiences:
Increased wear from metal-to-metal contact
Increased oil consumption and leakage
Increased engine noise.

are you driving a eco diesel or the 6.7?
if you have a eco diesel then the XXw-30 is for you if not then XXw-40 is for you.




 
#23 · (Edited)
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! More irrelevant babble from you. This issue has already been decided by Cummins and Shell/Rotella, whether you and your ego agree with it or not. The test results are also there supporting it. But you just keep spewing irrelevant, long winded posts to make you feel good about yourself since you think you know so much more than everyone else. The case is closed, if you dont like the decision by Shell/Rotella or Cummins, then dont use the oil. Either way, you need to grow up and stop spewing irrelevant data and lies dude..... like the crap about 5W-40 "MAY" be used in colder climates. I dont know what rock you live under, but 5W-40 has been approved for the engines in any climate, for quite some time. Your repeatedly posting misinformation and lies, should get you permanently banned, because its getting ridiculous.
 
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