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Old 01-02-2009, 07:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Power Service article I found interesting.

Found this article on another website that was sent to a person who is a member on this site. I'll leave out who it is because that's not what this thread is about.

I thought it was a very good article, others might not. Either way it's an interesting article and informative if you can get past the who wrote it phase.

O.K. here it is:

Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) has an antigen which prevents the fuel from gelling. It also has a detergent, cetane boost, lubricity, anti-icing, and corrosion package.

Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. The deicer can also help to solubilize small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.

Cetane will cause the fuel to ignite a split second sooner than fuel with low cetane. This will cause the engine to start faster and help the fuel to burn more completely and aid in fuel economy, reduce emissions and noise.

The detergent in DFS will help to keep the injectors clean which is the key to better fuel economy. The EMA (Engine Manufacturers Association) recommends the use of a detergent. Their research shows that low sulfur fuels have a tendency to form carbon deposits on fuel injectors. The DFS will prevent these deposits from forming. These deposits interfere with the fuel injector spray pattern, cause the engine to smoke, emit more emissions and reduce fuel economy.

Lubricity will help the fuel pump to last longer. The vast majority of fuel pumps in diesel engines are lubricated by the fuel and in the USA one-third of the fuels do not meet the minimum lubricity requirements. The DFS has enough lubricity to raise these fuels up to the minimum standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. The fuel pump manufacturers BOSCH, Delphi, Denso, Siemens and Stanadyne say that lubricity is the most valuable and crucial property of diesel fuel.

Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water and it is not intended to. The injector cleaner is strong enough to clean up a dirty injectors to the spray pattern of a new injector. The Cetane Boost will help your engine start quicker, reduce emissions (even NOx) and improve engine performance. The lubricity package will bring the lubricity of the fuel up to the standard recommended by the fuel pump manufacturers. It meets the N14 Standard for corrosion and it will stabilize the fuel. The stability package helps the fuel to resist thermal breakdown which can cause the fuel to darken and form particulate materials which create gum residues in the fuel system.

Diesel Kleen is the only additive on the market that has effectively demonstrated the ability to reduce NOx (Nitrogen Oxides) which are the fine particles & ground level ozone often called Urban Smog. It will also reduce the other diesel emissions like black smoke, PM, CO, and HC. It also has the strongest detergent package on the market.

When it comes to water dispersal the following will apply.

A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.

Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can freeze in the fuel lines and prevent fuel flow. There are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. You have to test the fuel your are using against the various demulsifiers to see which one will work with that fuel. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.
An emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Both Ford and Chevy have advised against the use of emulsifiers because of possible engine damage caused by water droplets in the fuel. These water droplets also reduce the lubricity of the fuel and hurt fuel pumps and can pit, scare and destroy injector tips, according to Ford and Chevy.

Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement do not contain demulsifiers, emulsifiers or alcohols.

Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will also keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. A fuel solubilizer will not suspend water in the fuel as water droplets and it is not an emulsifier.

There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911. It takes a lot of water dispersant to take care of free water so it will take up a lot of room in a container.

If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. You might also use it once a month in the equipment during the winter just to be sure condensation doesn't build up in the system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water in a vehicle . Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem .

Diesel 911 does not contain any methyl or ethyl alcohols. It is a proprietary mixture containing Hydroxyl Compounds. These de-icers are used in many diesel fuel additives that are currently on the market.

It is also interesting to note that Power Service Products, Inc. is one of the few diesel fuel manufacturers that have their own chemical storage tanks, own lab and one of the most modern and automated production lines in the industry. We buy our chemicals by the truck load, tanker load and sometimes by a million gallons at a time. We control our costs in this way which keeps us cost competitive and we also do not experience shortages which would stop production in the critical winter months. Our chemist in our own lab come up with our formulations and test them for performance and quality. We mix our own chemicals at our tank farm and then send them to our warehouse for bottling, box the product and store it for shipping. Most of our competitors use what we call "cold blenders". That is they come up with a formulation and then send it off to a blending facility who purchase the chemicals and mix them to the required specifications, bottle and box and label the product and then ship it back to the owner who warehouse it until it is sold. This causes their prices to be usually higher than ours. Often since they have higher costs due to the cold blend process they put out an inferior product and say it is equal to or better than ours.

End of article.

O.K. I better add I'am not affiliated with PS in any form, shape, or way. I've used there products in the past with excellent experiences.
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Old 01-02-2009, 08:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think I saw relatively the same things claimed on a late night infomercial.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Good article on PS and the breakdown of the additive package. I was a long time user of PS and have no doubt that it is a good product, as are many of the additives on the market today. I only have one complaint and that is the amount of "filler" in most of the additives out there. Don't get me wrong, some filler is required, otherwise you would have a solid block of unpourable material in a quart bottle. But there are very few additive packages that are in concentrated form. Most additives contain up to 40% filler material that makes up the total additive package. This means that more additive is required to achieve a certain lubricity, cetane, algae/water control, etc... I am currently using an additive called Cleanfire that contains only 4% filler material, with the remaining 96% being functional additives. I think it's an outstanding product for many reasons, and not the least of which is cost. For example, a quart bottle of PS treats 50 gallons of fuel at $7.50/quart. My additive treats 375 gallons/quart and costs $25.00/quart. That equates to about $3.25 per 50 gallons of fuel treated. Plus, Cleanfire does NOT contain alcohol(abrasive), mineral spirits(solvent), acetone, or straight naphtha. because of its concentration, it's visibly darker and thicker than other additives and doesn't contain that strong solvent odor. I would gladly put this product up against any additive on the market. Anyway, just my .02. I would be glad to discuss specifics via PM's with anyone interested.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:46 AM   #4 (permalink)
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There is a great deal of information here, only one part for now.

To my understanding, you don't want water any where near your injectors. For this reason, I intentionally use a product that claims to protect me with the demulsifier route of water control. To my knowledge, the demulsifier additive makes the water cling together to form droplets, that when reaching the filter are larger in micron than the filter media. This results in a dropping out of suspension, and waiting patiently at the bottom of the filter, not against the media itself. To say that water can accumulate on the bottom of the tank and create corrosion or ice crystals is a worst case scenario, when in reality, road conditions quickly put this water in route toward the filter to be changed out at a service interval. This I do feel happens because it's quite easy to shine a flashlight in the bottom of the tank to verify. This is what my beliefs are on demulsifiers.

This third type of water control is a new one on me. I thought either the water was suspended, or dropped out. To claim it is a solubilizer makes it sound different than an emulsifier. I'm not smart enough to know when water is not water, I would question if the injector is either.

Good article
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:22 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I also highly doubt water can accumulate at the bottom of a fuel tank. Fuel is sucked from the bottom of the tank along with debrie, water or any other substance that settles out or is heavier than fuel. The fuel also sloashes around mixing any thing together as we drive, there are no baffles in our fuel tanks as I installed a fuel tank vent kit and seen for myself.

One of the points in that e-mail was that's why there's different products to do different things and why the concentrations can or can not be as high as they would like.

One other point I got was just because in laymens terms we use generic terms such as **** when in reality there are so many different types of chemicals that can be labeled **** it takes some one professionally trained to discern the differences and their principal functions. Insert Alcohol or sulfer in the **** for discussion purposes or any other chemical with same name but different chemical properties.
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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But in the PS 911 MSDS, it says it contains 70-80% hydroxy compounds, which is alcohol.

The rest is made up of simple solvents (or as they call them, 'hydrocarbons')

It's a nice letter, but it doesn't change what the ingredients actually are.
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattingly View Post
But in the PS 911 MSDS, it says it contains 70-80% hydroxy compounds, which is alcohol.

The rest is made up of simple solvents (or as they call them, 'hydrocarbons')

It's a nice letter, but it doesn't change what the ingredients actually are.
Hydroxy compound defined...
R-5.5.1 Hydroxy compounds and analogues

Wow! Benzene that wonderful cancer causing agent! (Just one of the few listed)

Hydrocabrbons is a generic label for a oil based chemical.
Hydrocarbon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattingly View Post
But in the PS 911 MSDS, it says it contains 70-80% hydroxy compounds, which is alcohol.

The rest is made up of simple solvents (or as they call them, 'hydrocarbons')

It's a nice letter, but it doesn't change what the ingredients actually are.
Same old question- is that MSDS all inclusive or are the trade secret proprietary ingredients not lsited?
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattingly View Post
But in the PS 911 MSDS, it says it contains 70-80% hydroxy compounds, which is alcohol.

The rest is made up of simple solvents (or as they call them, 'hydrocarbons')
I guess what we need to know first, is alcohol bad for the injection system. From what I've heard, it should not be used. Tulene, Acetone, and Alcohol are on the "do not use" list. I hear it most from the people at Stanadyne, and from a few others, but other than that I have no real experiance. What has been my understanding is not so much the stripping action of these chemicals but the damage they do when sitting for extended periods. I have a vehicle that runs on alcohol, and have to replace the fuel plumbing every three to four years. The more I read that article, the more I read alcohol in the ingredients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr2tow View Post
Diesel Kleen and DFS do not contain demulsifiers, emulsifiers or alcohols.

Diesel 911 does not contain any ethyl or methyl alcohols.
I notice the second sentence does not use such a broad statement. It is specific as to the two chemicals that are not present. I read the article with alcohol in mind when it talks about solubulizing water, and it makes a great deal of sense. It states that is has the ability to fight filter face freezing, again, one of the benefits alcohol has to offer.

I guess my question first an foremost, can alcohol be used safely. When I mean safely, I refer to safe when used properly. Then second, does this product contain such alcohol.

Can someone help me with the alcohol question? Thanks.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carroll7645 View Post
I guess what we need to know first, is alcohol bad for the injection system. From what I've heard, it should not be used. Tulene, Acetone, and Alcohol are on the "do not use" list. I hear it most from the people at Stanadyne, and from a few others, but other than that I have no real experiance. What has been my understanding is not so much the stripping action of these chemicals but the damage they do when sitting for extended periods. I have a vehicle that runs on alcohol, and have to replace the fuel plumbing every three to four years. The more I read that article, the more I read alcohol in the ingredients.

I notice the second sentence does not use such a broad statement. It is specific as to the two chemicals that are not present. I read the article with alcohol in mind when it talks about solubulizing water, and it makes a great deal of sense. It states that is has the ability to fight filter face freezing, again, one of the benefits alcohol has to offer.

I guess my question first an foremost, can alcohol be used safely. When I mean safely, I refer to safe when used properly. Then second, does this product contain such alcohol.

Can someone help me with the alcohol question? Thanks.
Like you I don't think alcohol is a safe product to be adding to the fuel. Burn characterisitc as well as the effects it has on seals and hoses...

Like a friend gave me a product to try "Ultimate ME2" this stuff is clear like water but acts just like alcohol. Quote "safe for diesels"... Yeah right i know that is no where near what diesel fuel characterisitcs. For sure doesn't contain any lubricants! As a matter of fact the bottle still sits on the table to this day...

But as for me PS has been around for a very long time true... Ther product is considered "safe" only if you use it as directed at 400:1 mix ratio. I think this is where everyone screws up personal thinking if a little is good (normal dose) they double it or triple it..

Quote:
A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a water solubilizer are all water dispersants. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.
Here is a link send to me by email from another forum warning about damages that water has on CR injectors and the fact that Dodge will NOT warranty the work at all...
http://dodgeownerforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4286.0
(Site temporarily down but soon return...I was there last night 1/4/09)
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