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Old 12-23-2012, 07:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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here is a video of my truck starting after sitting over night. its about 1PM here in the video.
is this normal?
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:23 PM   #14 (permalink)
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here is a video of my truck starting after sitting over night. its about 1PM here in the video. Cold start 2500 - YouTube is this normal?
Batteries are dead. Time for replacement. During your cranking it should never fall below 10.5 Volts and the computers are wigging out because voltage is falling well below 8 volts. So its not normal.

So replace both batteries...
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i just spent 500.00 on these 2 batteries 3 weeks ago. i think ill go back to the store i got them from
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:03 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Be aware since I do not have a IAT sensor any longer that grid heaters are still coming on with post heat after starting regardless of IAT and ECT. The only way I can see the ECM seeing temps is through the Battery Temp sensor on the PCM and sent down the CCD Network for the ECM to use. My IAT is locked to 143*F and regardless of ECT showing 193-197*F the grid heaters will cycle till time out or till ~20 MPH...
Ya know, I was thinking about that as I posted, but I thought I'd wait to see what you had to say..... With that said, maybe the reasons the grids continue to cycle upon starting even though the engine is at full operating temp is because of just a simple ECM timer.

I've mentioned this before but there used to be a fellow by the name of Harvey or Harold who used to make and sell various electronic gadgets for these trucks through the forums and one of them was a "grid heater saver". I dont know how it tied in or what it overrode but its purpose was to stop that annoying grid heater cycle when the engine is warm. To bad no one has one from him, otherwise we could duplicate what he did.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:18 AM   #17 (permalink)
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...maybe the reasons the grids continue to cycle upon starting even though the engine is at full operating temp is because of just a simple ECM timer.
Prior to cranking the engine the ECM uses the IAT sensor only to determine if the intake air heaters should be activated during the preheat phase. Once the engine is running (the postheat phase), the ECM uses both the IAT sensor input AND the fuel temperature signal originating from the VP44 to control the air intake heaters.

This explains why the intake air heaters sometimes continue to operate after starting the engine even with an elevated intake air temperature.

Ref: Pages 124-126, Chrysler Training Pub 8169997178, Cummins Electronic Fuel Injection

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Old 12-24-2012, 01:01 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Prior to cranking the engine the ECM uses the IAT sensor only to determine if the intake air heaters should be activated during the preheat phase. Once the engine is running (the postheat phase), the ECM uses both the IAT sensor input AND the fuel temperature signal originating from the VP44 to control the air intake heaters.

This explains why the intake air heaters sometimes continue to operate after starting the engine even with an elevated intake air temperature.

Ref: Pages 124-126, Chrysler Training Pub 8169997178, Cummins Electronic Fuel Injection

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Sounds logical.....but goes against why Moparman still gets post heat cycles given that his IAT is not connected. I've tried to search out my service manual too but haven't found anything yet. I'm still leaning toward a simple post heat ECM timer as long as the ECM reads 60* or less outside.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Sounds logical.....but goes against why Moparman still gets post heat cycles given that his IAT is not connected.
Not really.

If the fuel temperature is cool enough, that's likely what's triggering the post heat phase.

Also worth noting...

The Chrysler training publication I referenced earlier has detailed charts showing the temperatures at which the intake air heaters energize and their duty cycles. The chart for the post heat phase lists not only the IAT and fuel temperature as inputs, but also the battery temp sensor as well. However, nowhere in the explanatory text of this training publication, or the factory service manual, does it mention the battery temp sensor has anything to do with the intake heater system, so I suspect that could be a mistake in the chart... but you never know.

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Old 12-24-2012, 01:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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i just spent 500.00 on these 2 batteries 3 weeks ago. i think ill go back to the store i got them from
Definitely take them back! Mine was just like that at the start of this winter.. replaced them both, and now it cranks over pretty fast even lately when it's been ~ -25C here in Calgary in the mornings..
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Not really.

If the fuel temperature is cool enough, that's likely what's triggering the post heat phase.

Also worth noting...

The Chrysler training publication I referenced earlier has detailed charts showing the temperatures at which the intake air heaters energize and their duty cycles. The chart for the post heat phase lists not only the IAT and fuel temperature as inputs, but also the battery temp sensor as well. However, nowhere in the explanatory text of this training publication, or the factory service manual, does it mention the battery temp sensor has anything to do with the intake heater system, so I suspect that could be a mistake in the chart... but you never know.

John L.
I'm hearing you but knowing that when the overhead display is reading 60* or less, when I'm driving around and the truck is fully warmed, I can turn the engine off and immediately restart and the grid heaters will recycle post heat for a period of time or until I get going again and reach the triggered 17-18 mph. That tells me that it cant be fuel temp since the VP is definitely not cold. Battery temp sensor?.....maybe.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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That tells me that it cant be fuel temp since the VP is definitely not cold.
The VP44's overall temperature and the temperature of the fuel entering it are two different things. The VP44 measures fuel temperature as the fuel enters, not after it's absorbed heat and is exiting. In other words, the fuel temperature the VP44 sees is pretty much the temperature of the fuel in the tank.

I have a Chrysler DRBIII scan tool which displays fuel temperature as reported by the VP44 and I've verified this. The reported fuel temperature gradually increases as heated fuel is returned to the tank. This process is aided by the decreasing amount of fuel in the tank.

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Old 12-24-2012, 02:32 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Got you all thinkin'
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The VP44's overall temperature and the temperature of the fuel entering it are two different things. The VP44 measures fuel temperature as the fuel enters, not after it's absorbed heat and is exiting. In other words, the fuel temperature the VP44 sees is pretty much the temperature of the fuel in the tank.

I have a Chrysler DRBIII scan tool which displays fuel temperature as reported by the VP44 and I've verified this. The reported fuel temperature gradually increases as heated fuel is returned to the tank. This process is aided by the decreasing amount of fuel in the tank.

Best regards,

John L.
But what about the OEM fuel filter housing with a fuel heater, which if I remember correctly, is activated when the fuel when fuel temps are below 70*?

Again, I hear ya but I'm not feeling this is the true variable for why the grids post cycle. I live where we dont have to deal with sub zero temps and I can testify that when the ambient temps are at 60* or barely under 60* outside then the grids will still post cycle upon start up. Obviously its not cold outside to justify the need for the grids, nor can fuel be very cold either since it doesn't matter if I've been driving all day or just a quick trip to the store.

As I mentioned before, it sure would be nice to know what the Harold/Harvey guy did to create his grid heater saver. Clearly within his design, he didn't override the IAT because otherwise Moparman's grids wouldn't cycle then.

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Got you all thinkin'
Yes, yes you did.
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