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NV5600 to FSO6406A 6 speed Fuller

1M views 2K replies 248 participants last post by  gbcummin 
#1 · (Edited)
2001 Dodge 3500, 112,000 mi, 5.9 Cummins, 4X 4, Long Bed with NV5600 6 speed transmission. Just went out again for the 3rd time. Failures were at 82,000, 97,000 and now at 112,000. Had regular dealer service. Use it to haul a 40' gooseneck and a Case 1155E loader tipping the scales at 25,000 lbs.

Parts are really hard to find. Last time I had to buy a core for $500 just to get parts for the rebuild by a heavy truck tranny shop. Problem seems to be in the 5-6 gear section with seized bearings.

Spoke with a rebuild shop in Ohio and they have started drilling lube holes in the case and bearing shell and claim they have not had any failures since they started. Anyone have experience with this procedure???

I am changing the NV5600 out for a Fuller FSO-6406A. It has a 660 HP rating with 6th OD at .78. These ratings are close to that of the NV5600.

This is not new or innovative. The Freightliner FL 70 has used the FS6406 6 speed since '93 and Ford has used Fuller's with Cummins on the F650 and F750 since 2003.

Since Fuller never has had a married transfer case, the transfer case would have to be divorced. Need to find the correct clutch set up that is used with the medium duty truck. Would need a #2 SAE flywheel housing and 1-3/4" clutch.

Parts are readily availabe for Fuller and never have to worry about synthetic oils--should be good for 500k miles or more.

Local trans shop has a NV5600 for $1000. Needs output shaft and bearing. Synchros and all gears look good. Mine will be available as soon as I complete the change-over. I suppose someone will want pictures and part numbers.
 
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#893 · (Edited)
Does anyone besides Eaton sell synchronizers...? 3/4 broke.
A little clatter and 4th disappeared.

What happened to STEMCO? Their synchro's lasted forever.

ALSO; I'm looking for a vendor that isn't so proud of their parts.
Hard to believe the increase in cost over just a few years.. damn. :doh:

BTW, the gear set looks like it did when I rebuilt it prior to the conversion and it had a bunch of miles and needed synchros.

As to the 600 ft. lbs. rating for the 6406: after a long visit with one of the engineers that designed the box, Eaton rates their transmissions at a reduced percentage which ends up being their torque rating (clear as mud). I never was given the percentage btw >) In other words, unless you have an extra large cooling system, you will never put enough load on the Eaton to create a problem, you will burn up the ISB before the transmission exceeds its' design limit(s). Also keep in mind that your diff is now your weakest link in this little exercise. (I use 90/140 AMS OIL and a qt of KZ33 with the oversized cover and refresh every 15,000 miles).

I am very satisfied with the results of this modification and don't let anyone tell you you need a higher class truck.
My little monster pulls like a locomotive and does it with ease.. Carry On!
 
#895 ·
6BT Flywheel Housings

Hi All,

Here are a few more choices for flywheel housings

3925223 3 o’clock
4047250 3 o’clock
4298243 9 o’clock
3933387 9 o’clock cross to 3931717 & 3904717
3913582 1 o’clock
3931717 3 o’clock
4047260 9 o’clock
3904717 9 o’clock
3966571 8 o’clock Dongfeng 6BT
4943473 7 o’clock
3904172 3 o’clock
3931716 9 o’clock

These may be more scarce than the older ones. Direction is from drivers seat

Paul
 
#896 · (Edited)
This topic inspired me to do a "not-off-the-shelf" manual swap on my 2nd gen 12v.
I was allready done converting a ZF S5-42 from a DAF 45 truck (with cummins) to 4x4 by swapping out the tailhousing and main shaft and mating it to a 31 spline NP205 from a Ford Bronco. (and then added all the upgraded shafts and goodies to the TC)

This alone was allready a pain in the behind since everything that smells like USA car/truck over here is expensive and hard to come by. (most of the conversion parts came from the USA)
So as i have everything set for this project (I bought a complete 6B with the ZF5 on it, so i have all the SAE #3 gear complete and ready to go) i was ready to take out the engine and start the swap.

But then i had an even wilder idea, why not swap the broken automatic for a tranny that will actually hold the torque of a decent powered Cummins?

So my quest for glory started from there, and i eventually bought myself a nice ZF 9S-75TO from also a DAF truck. (DAF 65 and 75)
Photo as example:


This tranny is as the name implies indeed a 9 speed with high/low range and crawler gear.
Rated at 900nm (664 ft/lbs) and weighs only 125kg (275 pounds) with a .73 OD

The shifter base from a S5-42 is a direct bolt on (these transmissions only come with remote shifters, like al cabover trucks in europe) and i am probably the only one in the world who has a direct shifter on this tranny.

Currently still trying to score a clutch housing for this trans (not so easy) and a complete SAE #2 set for my engine (but again, as this is europe, no luck so far)

I am also trying to get a partnumber for the tailhousing on the ZF9 for use with an e-brake setup (so i get 4 nice mounting holes on the back of the trans, as on the example photo) and can fab up an adapter to mate it to the np205

But apart from that i have everything that i need, also have the pedals and master/slave from a manual truck and a range gearknob from eaton.
Air compressor also available from the 6B, will use an electric vacuumpomp from a Volvo passenger car for heater operation so that the compressor can go in the place of the mechanical vacuumpump.

I will post some pics of the actual goods when i get back home from work @ Azerbaijan.

Until then i hope you like what i am brewing up in the small country of Holland ;)

oh and by the way, i totally do not need this kind of transmission for my truck, the most load it will ever see is like 15000 pounds, and i'm not even allowed to haul that weight with my current driver license.

more fun than function ;)
 
#897 ·
European Coversion

Leen,

That's what I like to see--imagination and the courage to improvise.

You are to be congratulated for what you are doing. What you are doing is similar to our FORD products in the USA.

What flywheel housing are you looking for? the 6BT is also used by Steyr, Dongfeng, Howa and others. ZF is very common in Europe and Asia with lots of after market parts available. There are even variations of Fuller being used.

Keep us updated.

Paul
 
#898 ·
Paul,

ZF is indeed very common over here (german based offcoure), alsmost every truck manufacturer uses them.
However, truck scrapyard only sells trannies without the clutch housing, and nobody seems to sell the clutch housings. They must disappear into a wormhole or something.

Flywheelhousings is also something you don't run into sold seperately, and even if you do, they want like 3000 euro's for a housing and a flywheel. No way.

Keeping my eyes open for a complete engine with ZF gearbox, like the 180/215hp cummins engines from DAF trucks that also use the SAE #2 setup.
That way i have everything i need and i can put another engine on stock (cummins #3 that would be)

I will try to keep you guys updated.
 
#899 ·
Clutch Cover

Leen,

If you purchase a rebuilt manual transmission in the USA, more than 90% do not have the clutch housing attached. Same problem here, where do they go ???

On your ZF 9S-75TO, it seems as thought this can be either a mid-range truck or a heavy truck. Do the trucks you referenced have their own block pattern to an SAE housing??

Is it possible to adapt a Fuller (or other model) clutch housing to the transmission and have SAE#2 Clutch to SAE #2 on the Cummins flywheel housing. The maximum you would loose on pilot engagement would be about 1/4". Just a thought.

Paul
 
#903 ·
Leen,

If you purchase a rebuilt manual transmission in the USA, more than 90% do not have the clutch housing attached. Same problem here, where do they go ???

On your ZF 9S-75TO, it seems as thought this can be either a mid-range truck or a heavy truck. Do the trucks you referenced have their own block pattern to an SAE housing??

Is it possible to adapt a Fuller (or other model) clutch housing to the transmission and have SAE#2 Clutch to SAE #2 on the Cummins flywheel housing. The maximum you would loose on pilot engagement would be about 1/4". Just a thought.

Paul
They stay with the engine. Why?
Unless mfg. practices have changed in the last 40 years, Bellhousings have been align bored along with the main bores on engine. Same fixture.. makes for a perfect alignment...
Or maybe the black hole thing is true!

Ever hear of chryslers 'offset dowel pin' for re aligning a mis matched bellhousing? .002 or more offset makes a nasty chatter on clutch engagement!!

Terrific thread here!
 
#904 ·
then why do most passenger car transmissions have bellhousing/gearbox casing from 1 piece?

i think the only reason you can take of the bellhousing on medium/heavy duty gearboxes is because of the different clutch/flywheel sizes.
so that you can chose a bellhousing that is suitable for your needs/engine.
 
#905 · (Edited)
Housings

Welcome bottomofbarrel,

They were discussing the transmission clutch cover not the engine bellhousing.

ProGear and many other dealers send you just a transmission with no housing attached.

I agree, where is that BLACK HOLE they go into. Salvage yards won't sell just the trans housing.

Go figure ???

Paul
 
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#906 ·
Welcome bottomofbarrel,

The were discussing the transmission clutch cover not the engine bellhousing.

ProGear and many other dealers send you just a transmission with no housing attached.

I agree, where is that BLACK HOLE they go into. Salvage yards won't sell just the trans housing.

Go figure ???

Paul
oh heck! why did I "Just" find this thread yesterday??

just started a winter project of rebuilding an early 98 ram. I pretty much decided to go with the nv5600, instead of the original nv4500.
..... for better gear spacing.... I'll use this truck for a lot of hauling.
After countless phone calls to guys with transmissions for sale, and worrying about getting a moneypit.. I thought I found a deal a couple days ago.
Then I found your thread last night!!:doh:

Is your machinist going to produce these tc adapters? or at least build them on a 'per request' basis?

maybe those bellhouses have that 2% unobtainium highly sought after!!
 
#907 ·
Fuller Transmission Adapter

I have been working for many months attempting to find some company that will build the hub stub/29 spline shaft to go into the transfer case. Quantity is the problem--just not enough to make it worthwhile to them.

I haven't given up................still working on it. I have updated my CAD drawings and working on a 3D drawing to see if they can better visualize the entire assy as though it is working. Just trying to get some interest to have some company build it.

We could build an adapter similar to the first unit, but again its the time and now the cost of flanges has gone through the roof. We also need to look at units for Ford. Chevy and Jeep transfer cases with different hub splines on the transfer case.

Paul
 
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#908 ·
Larger Wheels

For those of you that want the speed of a FSO-6406A but find it out of your price range, any of the straight 6 speeds FS series are cheap. Problem is no OD.

To get the the speed up and the RPM's in the power band, you could go to much larger tires. I am having some wheel adapter plates made to go from the Dodge 6.5 bolt pattern to standard 10 hole Budd wheels (11-1/4"). These are not cheesy adapters, they are 5/8" thick Grade 50, so there is no bending. Really nice for a 2WD. I don't think the NV5600 would hold up very long with the larger tires and 4WD.

There's a lot of surplus out there where these could be used to your advantage and still be affordable.

Give me your opinions.

paul
 
#909 ·
I have been thinking about getting some 19.5 wheels from Rickson but that is $$$$. I know your adapters would be stout, but adapters scare me.

I would love to see the adapters and such, but I would also not really like to truck to be on huge wheels/tires. If I go to 19.5" wheels I wouldn't go to low profile tires, but I would be near the smaller end of the normal range to keep the truck as close to where it sits now as possible.

There is a truck around here with huge tires on a 2wd and it looks hokey.

Chris
 
#910 ·
yep, that a way to go.

what are the current prices to convert a FS to FSO? (parts)?

Did I read it's basically the input shaft, cluster gear shaft and the 6th gear on main shaft?

I've done a little searching this past week and been able to come up with most FS's for ~1000-1200 and FSO's from 1500-2500

If you can do it for less than the difference on these prices.. (either change the gearing in 6th, change your tire circumference, or re gear your drive axle) that 7:1 first gear could handle a 3.55 or less ring and pinion!!

so, for a difference of about 1000 clams in todays trans prices... can we do a tire swap, or a re gear of 6th, or a drive axle change up?

My opinion would be, If you have the parts already laying around... go that direction (wheels anyway) Most of us gear heads have quite a collection of goodies 'out back' that need to go back to work!

I'll keep watching your progress on your quest.
If you can't find a shop to knock off the quantities reqd. for a discount, maybe you could sell your plans/ cnc program?

The strength of the gm adpater and your stub shaft has me curious!
with a 7:1 first gear, and lets say a conservative 600 ft/lbs of a stock engine.. that's 4200 POTENTIAL running through that..:S: ??
I only say this because of todays typical use of a pickup:
1. street machine
2. weekend warrior
3. competition of some sort
4. work
Gotta consider what it'll end up in, and the probable abuse it'll have to endure! I believe the weakest link in a drive line should be the Universal joint. (it's the cheapest, and easiest to replace) SOMETHING HAS TO BE A SAFETY FUSE!

I've read through the whole ~4 year progress on this thread over the past couple days... and with exception of a couple of 'naysayers' ahem... I think most (me included) appreciate what you are doing!
Anything is possible, I'll bet the Wright Brothers took crap too!
Later!:thumbsup:
Bob
 
#911 ·
what are the current prices to convert a FS to FSO? (parts)?
About $800 for brand new Eaton parts. Which is cheaper than just a torque converter for an automatic rebuild. If you look around you can find a 6306 or 6406 for around $500-$700. I paid $600 for a FS-6306X that was pulled because a union contract required the truck it was in to be an automatic.
 
#912 ·
All you have to do is go to any oil patch machine shop and get them to cnc a machine alum adapter soft and cheap and low hourly rates under $200 an hour. Ask the machine shop to send out the needed inside spline cut you are currenting using from 2 junk nv5600 dead trans 4x4 couplers nobody else has. Prob is one can just buy a g56 used and use all factory parts especially the crossmbers from a newer g56 equipped 6.7 equipped dodge truck. I thought people in new Mexico had drivers license that read new Mexican I can do it no new Mexican I can't do it lol!!!!! Good luck, if you go to quad4x4 they have 4x4 adapters shafts and imported inside cut splined they used to have made for them selves for there website sales. The guy retired why don't you call dan and ask him for the shop he used in Montana, dan is not making them maybe he will give you his machine shop source for the inside spline cutter machine, there are about 5 such broaching machines in south texas oil patch machine shops, under $200 a hour for cutting. Start a group buy will be first to join if u need funds.
 
#913 · (Edited)
If you believe it is that easy to do, I suggest you go for it.

I have 3 of the oil patch machine shops supposedly working on getting a quote together. No action as yet--it really doesn't matter much where I go, they all want over $1,000 for just the coupler. No deals to be found. The stub shaft is even more of a problem.

There has to be some adaptation depending on the process used for splines. Hobbed, CNC or EDM--all with different parameters.

Money has never been the issue for me personally, but affordability to the forum members and others is what it is all about. Not all have deep pockets.

Eaton has a high percentage of ownership in European and Asian companies and they market their Fuller 6 speeds and parts under different names and part numbers---all are genuine Fuller parts. The same spec's used on the FSO-6406A transmission is marketed under 3 different manufacturing names.

The quest is far from being over--if I can get a complete conversion kit including synchros, it would make the cheap FS-5306 and similar transmissions very sought after. I would even have new plates to say "Remanufactured to FSO-6406A Specifications". Could even add the parts series used for the conversion.

I have found half of the coupler already--working on the remainder.

Gotta go to CA and pickup 10 new tires and rims--41" and 46" tall.

Have Dodge will travel.

Paul
 
#915 · (Edited)
4 X 4 Adapter

Finally got some good news today.....

Received the material specifications and the forging drawing for both the the 38 tooth companion and the spline stub flange. Both are a single piece forgings. They must be able to control the dimensions, because the OD's are very close to finished dims. Can't believe it's taken this long to get to this point.

Depending on the process required for the stub shaft splines, the size of the housing may have to be adjusted in total length. Still under 7" long, about average for an adapter. It is as "close-coupled" as it can possibly be.


Paul
 
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#916 · (Edited)
Thats great news!

with a regular cab, that 7 inch adapter will put the tc pretty close to the fuel tank... but if memory serves, it should still fit with a little wiggle room.
Hopefully enough to R&R the tc for service.
was the $1000 coupler a scratch built coupler, or a cut down yoke? (either way..... YIKES)

Thanks for the update!
Bob
 
#917 ·
Sorry for asking questions that have likely already answered, but I don't have time to read the whole thread. How is shifting speed compared to an NV4500 or NV5600? How much power are the clutches holding up to?
 
#918 ·
T/C Install

The NP231, NP241 and will all mount with the same face plate as is now used on the Auto, NV4500 and NV5600.

On the Fuller Transmissions, the adapter will serve the purpose of the tail housings on 4 X 4 applications.

Now I really have to press for the machine work for the involute splines.

Max PF, any interest ???

Paul
 
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#920 ·
Fuller Transmission Shifting

chrisd91

Chris, since the Fuller FS and FSO series transmission are made for medium-duty trucks (2.5 tons +) they are by no means a fast shifting transmission---best I can say it gets the job done.

When my NV5600 was giving problems, I was a VERY SLOW and deliberate shifting individual. The Fuller is very forgiving.

Paul
 
#921 ·
Transfer Case Options

Just ran across a very interesting web site relating to available transfer case options.

Dodge had to be the oddball with the 29 spline input gear that VERY FEW of the aftermarket manufacturers support. Even the G56 has the 29 spline so you almost have to stay with the Dodge set-up.

Ford and Chevy use a 23, 27 & 32 spline input gear.

If you are planning on using some other replacement transmission for the junk NV4500 or NV5600, you can still use your transfer case by changing out the transfer case input gear. Be careful, there are different lengths and bearings used. If you have any mechanical aptitude, you can easily convert the transfer case to to match the transmission without spending mega-bucks.

This is part of the problem in trying to get a decent price on a companion flange stub shaft X 29 teeth--not common and not supported. The 32 spline version is more common. I'll check and see if it is more economical to change out the input gear and bearing and redesign the coupler shaft for 32 splines.

Check these sites

The Guide to NP / NVG Input Gears for Jeeps - Novak Conversions

Common Transfer Cases - Guide - High and Low Ranges - Off-Road Magazine

Paul
 
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