Stacking Tuners Good or Bad? When to and when not to. - Page 2 - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum
98.5-02 Performance Parts Discussion Discussion of Performance Parts For the 98-02 Trucks No Advertising ...NO ADVERTISING

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 12:50 AM Thread Starter
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No worries man I truly appreciate the insights. I have been spending my time trying to build a jigsaw puzzle of polar bear in a blizzard lolol. Any color is welcome.


I look forward to your thread.

I am not %100 convinced the vp has much coding beyond how to read data and perform the action, but again I am only able to look at the result of what happens...So who knows. I have done some REALLY REALLY REALLY bad code during testing and I have yet to experience the vp not doing what I tell it to. If I ask for timing of 0 it will do it and run like garbage, if I ask for timing of 4095 it will do it. The only thing I can't explain is fueling beyond 3500 rpm, but it appears that ECM is shutting down if I look at the data stream. Only a guess but that's what I see.

As for timing I really need to get a diesel timing light to see if my timing thoughts match what is actually happening. I am thinking that is the only way to truly know. The largest OEM timing request I have seen is ~3600. What that exactly equals is a little fuzzy but I would guess 28-29* commanded. As for base 18* I have no idea on that, but if it was 18* base then I have seen ~46*. Keep in mind the engine was cold so OEM timing was approx 4* advanced across the board. That lines up pretty dang close if your testing was done on a warm engine.


Regardless we are way off topic now so I will shut up until you start your thread. In the meantime I have reading to do.

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 09:59 AM
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Good info here.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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A little more for guys to think about.

The examples in the first post where using a linear model for fueling, which is not how things work on our trucks. It explains the point fine, but there is more to it.



Say you are sitting at a stop light, the OEM fueling command will sit around 500 or 600 out of the 4095 max. As soon as you touch the pedal that fueling message will jump right to ~2200 or 2600 depending on how much throttle you are using. as revs climb that fueling message will drop off some. Remember as revs increase each piston is firing more often. So an engine turning at 1500 revs with a fueling command of 2000 will make similar power to an engine turning at 2000 revs but a fueling message of 1500. less fuel more often = same torque.


Point is right offidle the oem fueling message is over %50 of the max. Adding a tuner on top will bump that by a % say %15

Example off idle from before of 2600 + tuner fueling = ~3000 of the 4095 possible. or ~%75 of possible fuel.

Stack a tuner on top, say another %15

~3000 + stack = ~3440 of the possible 4095 or %85 of the possible fuel.

How much fueling various tuners do offidle is not widely know so I pulled %15 out of thin air, but you get the point. Some tuners will ramp up fueling right to the max right off idle depending on throttle postion so you might end up with a grossly overfueled truck.

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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 02:29 PM
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I've ran my truck with a smarty and edge juice for a long time, only for having my speedometer corrected by the smarty. I run the lowest setting catcher without timingetting on the smartyand it's does fairly good as far as smoke with my 7x.011 injectors. Of course I've tried all the settings on the smarty with my setup and all it does is produce more smoke off idle. It's really disappointing not being able to run level 6 on the edge on any catcher setting because it will dog out the power? Have you come to any reason for this? I just figured some sort of communication error. I've dynoed my truck with and without the smarty and resulted with more power on top end without the smarty being on there. Basically the smarty for me was for the speedo and codes. I've been thinking of a better setup so does the new quad adjust the speedo via in the pcm? And help would be great and sorry for the off subject, it's been a while since of.been on here.

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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Dog out on power on lvl 6? I wouldn't know why honestly. The whole "hot unlock" is a mystery to me. To change the redline rpm in the base code of the Quad it was literally updating 1 variable from 3400 ( old quad) to 3700 so can't answer what the difference in hot unlock is, and why on earth they charge so much to do it lol.

I also don't understand how the Smarty makes less power up top when stacked, unless the Smarty is actively pulling fueling up top. I can't imagine why it would, but who knows. Once you hit the canbus fueling limit your done so stacking really shouldn't matter in terms of peak power, only under the curve power / fueling.

The Quad does not change speed in the PCM, only on the screen. However I promise you that you will like it much better in terms of drivablity compared to anything out there. The only thing that would compare, in my mind, would be the MM3 / udc pro, if it had wiretap and if it was ~$600 cheaper. There are a growning number of guys would have made the switch and are VERY happy with how it fuels.

I guess you could call the Hardfuel V2 Quadzilla tuning super dooper hot unlock ( laughable) as it will try and hold canbus fueling at max all the way until 3500 rpm. The ecm is cutting fueling VERY aggresively by 3300 so it takes a bit of voodoo to keep canbus fueling going. I think it took me the better part of a month to figure it out in a way that does PO the ECM and turn the truck off haha.


As for speedo changing, you might look over on Mopar1973man.com for Chris o. he is developing some stuff to read and alter CCD in a manner that no one has done before. It is seriously A++ stuff.

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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 04:25 PM
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I also don't understand how the Smarty makes less power up top when stacked, unless the Smarty is actively pulling fueling up top. I can't imagine why it would, but who knows. Once you hit the canbus fueling limit your done so stacking really shouldn't matter in terms of peak power, only under the curve power / fueling.
This phenomenon is not consistent as far as less peak but here is my opinion on what is happening. Peak fueling is happening far before ideal peak hp and at the point at which peak hp should occur fueling is already falling off.

Clear as mud? lol

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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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actually that does make some sense haha.

FYI @my_samurai all the levels on the smarty end up maxing out fuel so you are running into the issue this thread is talking about. The lower levels mean you are running into it later than most, but it is still happening.

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 05:41 PM
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It's completely strange, I can go WOT from a stop on level 6 on the edge and no matter what sw setting on the smarty and have a hard lauch, by the time everything really gets moving it just doesn't continue to pull, so if I just press down on the edge controller while still in WOT it takes off like a bat out of hel. With the smarty level 6 is a beast, but I absolutely hate my speedo being off. At this point the difference between level 5 and 6 on the dyno was about 17hp. Level 5 was 464hp with my 7x.010's and and 481hp on level 6. With out the smarty. With the smarty on sw2, level 6 on the edge was crap and level 5 was 454hp, all with a worn IP pump.

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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 01:51 AM
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actually that does make some sense haha.

FYI @my_samurai all the levels on the smarty end up maxing out fuel so you are running into the issue this thread is talking about. The lower levels mean you are running into it later than most, but it is still happening.
I'm no expert on the matter but I think we may be running into cavitation issues due to the distributor design of the VP, commanded timing is probably correct, duration is what suffers. Just a thought, and thanks for all your work Nick. 10 years ago, you coulda been a rich man.

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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 02:26 AM Thread Starter
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Hahaha maybe I need a go fund me.
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 05:42 AM
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At the very least...ypu should recieve one hellmof a deal on Quad or any DAP product.

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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Haha yeah. Well I didn't do it for money. Keep me busy and gets me to pass emissions. Thankfully i have a stable job so I can afford to do this stuff.


Anyways back on topic.
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