Long live the vibra machine - Front end Gurus HELP!!!

[Joe Mc]

Long one - guys - please trudge on:

Front end woes. Had friend get next to me at speed both front tires shaking. Tires wear fine, wheels are about a year old (never curbed), tires less than 10k, I use dyna beads, have rotated front to back same vibrating. My old 305 Coopers did same thing, had Road Force Balancing done, used dyna beads after removing road junk balancing weights, and the tires lasted for 45k, vibrating progressevly worsens at speeds over 45. Tire wear pattern is excellent??? I rarely get on the highway as I work 3 miles from home but when I do the ride stinks!

Everything in the front end is tight and has been double checked (shock mount bolts, control arm u/l bolts, track bar @ axle & frame) all joints are good - a bit of play @ steering link to drag arm joint and a bit @ sector shaft to box bearing - doubt these last two would "make" the front end vibrate? both side U/L ball joints tight. There's no play in front end when sitting on stands and wiggiling the tires side to side - WTF is it???

Bit of history:
Bought in 01 from dealer in Yorktown Heights NY, w/75k - presently has 149k. I noticed it had new right rotor, caliper and u/l ball joints (cheap POS ball joints that I replaced last year w/Moogs or TRW forget?) it took a r/suspension hit - obvious as to the right front (only) parts the dealer replaced.

Seems as if the vibrating appeared and has not gotton worse since I went with bigger than (at about 100k) the 285s that were on in when I got it. But is not going away. I replaced all four shocks (Monroes were OK but loose on the bottom and ruined the bolts, wnet with Bilsteins), new bottom shock bolts (tightened the bejimminies out of them - bouncing my big arse on breaker bar w/cheater pipe - "thats got to be tigh - right").

I'm going to attempt to post some pictures of the lower control arm to frame bushings which I inspected yesterday - they are dry rotted but not totally de-vulcanized from the arm sleeves - note the out of roundness on the inner sleeves where the bolt slides through. I've read that the rubber has already begun de-vulcanizing (wonder what Spock would think of this term?) by the time dry rot appears - But once again - I doubt that the arms are "causing" the vibrations? I tightened all the control arm bolts and was able to get at least 1/2 - 3/4 turn on all but the lower to axle one's - the ones with the adjuster cam washers - guess the front end guy used an impact?

Everything mentioned above, which will get attention - I.E.: sector shaft play (plan to get DSS stabilizer bearing kit), steering link to drag arm joint play (plan to get the 3rd gen track bar upgrade & steering link set up) and the worn arms (plan to get new control arms/complete lift kit) would "pronounce" the existing vibration (right) not "cause" it. But I'm not throwing money at it for upgrades until I get "rid" of whatever is "causing" the vibration. I could throw all the aforementioned parts at the front end and either improve or not "completely correct" the vibrating that is going on.

1. Could it be a bad hub bearing - everything feels tight?
2. Could it be a bent axle - how to check?
3. Could it be a bad axle to hub "U-Joint"?

Somebody SOOT ME!

See Pictures: Sorry Guys - I did the ctl-a, ctl-c and then in the post the ctl-c things - the images came up in the "preview" but not when I submitted the post - I guess the links will have to do??? Sorry

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...d=26813&width=2

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...d=26814&width=2

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...d=26815&width=2

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...d=26816&width=2

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...d=26817&width=2

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...d=26818&width=2

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/...d=26819&width=2

[Tom05]

Your pictures show arms that have some wear. They look normal to me. I would be questioning the tires. You say it got worse when you went to bigger tires. Have you checked them for out of round? Is it possible that you may need more beads for larger tires? It could also be a mild form of the "death wobble:, but I really don't think so. The first thing I would do is get the front end tight and go from there. Did your friend say the tires were going up and down or side to side? That would point you in the right direction (up and down balance problem, side to side death wobble).
Tom

[Joe Mc]

Hey Tom thanks for the reply. I feel it is not tire related, but in the rotating mass somewhere - hub bearing or axel??? The Cooper's that I had from about 100k to 145 (305/70/16) did the same thing - I tried regluar balancing and road force balancing nothing worked. When I first got the Coopers I had the original potato chip (factor chrome) wheels and one was slightly bent (hmmm, wonder if that was the one on the front when it sustained the hit???) then I got new Eagle aluminums and still the same. Then when I wore out the Coopers I went with the Nittos (305/70/16) - same thing. After the Road Force balancing went from 29 a tire to 100 an axle I went with the dyna beads (Coopers and presently in the Nittos) I think based on size they took 8oz / tire. I guess I'll need to get it to a suspension/chassis shop to have it really troubleshot.

The reason I put the pictures in the post was - I feel the bushings and slight sector shaft play from the box would "pronounce" what I'm experiencing not be the "cause" of it. And as far as side to side or back and forth movement that my friend saw kind of hard to tell @ 60+ mph. But, I'll ask if he remembers. To eleviate the possibility of tire/wheel issue I'm going to see if I can try a set of tires from a friends truck - that should help eliminate the tire/wheel question.

Thanks again.

[1workinman]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Hey Tom thanks for the reply. I feel it is not tire related, but in the rotating mass somewhere - hub bearing or axel??? The Cooper's that I had from about 100k to 145 (305/70/16) did the same thing - I tried regluar balancing and road force balancing nothing worked. When I first got the Coopers I had the original potato chip (factor chrome) wheels and one was slightly bent (hmmm, wonder if that was the one on the front when it sustained the hit???) then I got new Eagle aluminums and still the same. Then when I wore out the Coopers I went with the Nittos (305/70/16) - same thing. After the Road Force balancing went from 29 a tire to 100 an axle I went with the dyna beads (Coopers and presently in the Nittos) I think based on size they took 8oz / tire. I guess I'll need to get it to a suspension/chassis shop to have it really troubleshot.

The reason I put the pictures in the post was - I feel the bushings and slight sector shaft play from the box would "pronounce" what I'm experiencing not be the "cause" of it. And as far as side to side or back and forth movement that my friend saw kind of hard to tell @ 60+ mph. But, I'll ask if he remembers. To eleviate the possibility of tire/wheel issue I'm going to see if I can try a set of tires from a friends truck - that should help eliminate the tire/wheel question.

Thanks again.

Sir is a quote that I found on anougher web sight, I did a search on Death Wobble. 1st learing curve: ALWAYS TALK TO THE TECH WORKING ON YOUR RIG, DEMAND IT!!

Death Wobble: Truck only has 4800 miles on it. I put a leveling kit on 3000 miles ago, and never aligned it, it drove fine with tire wear to a minimum. I had felt slight shimmy lately and figured OK, I need to get this aligned whenever. Anyway, since there is a TSB on the front dampner, they were going to order me a new dampner.

Told them to do an alignment and make sure to add max caster. Get the truck back two days later, and guess what, it pulls to the right and steering wheel is crooked. Took back today and they put it on the rack right away. I asked to talk to the tech, and they said sure. So I went to the techs work station and he did not know there was any shimmy, TSB etc. He said the SW just told him to do an alignment, and it was in spec and did not touch caster (tech did not know I requested that since I did not talk to him the first time). Long story short, I watched him do the alignment, we (I requested) put in a little over (.2) caster from spec, readjusted the toe, adjusted the steering wheel, and guess what, the truck drives great (has a slight road crown pull) and the shimmy is gone!! On top of that, they are giving me my $$ back from the alignment, and the tech is going to reschedule and install an eccentric ball joint to and new dampner and get this truck back to perfect, all under warranty .
_________
Many years ago I went to a IRD vibration class. The class helps you understand what causes vibration and how to correct it. I dont pertend to be a expert. Hope that the copy and paste helps

[Joe Mc]

1Workinman - thanks for the reply. I was only able to use my friends two rear tires that were not the new ones, however they were balanced and rode fine on his truck. Which, by the way, was an 01 (mine's a 99) his new tires were on the factory aluminum wheels and would'nt fit my truck with out removing substantial material from the steering knuckle to link joints and machining the rear drums, so we opted to take his two back wheels with aftermarket wheels and just try them on the front. Road test revealed same vibration just a difference frequency due to the larger tire. So back to square - I'm going to get it to the shop. More to come.

[homermandy]

Did you ever resolve your vibration?

[Mopar1973Man]

Ok... I'm going to toss my 2 cents here...

1. When people start changing tires and rims on a Dodge you start changing the geometry of the the front end. 90% all problem start occur after larger tire have been installed.

2. I would get a rebuild kit for the entire front end and rebuild it. All new shocks, bushing, ball-joints, tie-rods, trac bar, etc. Then take it to a wheel alignment shop and have it professiinally aligned!

Like myself I got a set of white spoked rim with my winter tires on them. Now the tire are stock sized but the offset of the rim is about 2" inches outward. Now my stock tire poke out 2" extra inches now. But this now changes the center of weight on the axles as well as wheel bearings. Like myself I now change the setup fo the geometry of my axles...