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Old 07-01-2011, 12:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Transmission (47RE) need expert help poor shift

Hi and thank you for reading - and any insight!

I have a 96 CTD 4x4 with the 47RE - no modifications or anything truck has~150K trans replaced with factory rebuild at ~120K. Here are all the stupid things I did and what happened:
Decided to change fluid and filter just before driving across the country.
Adjusted bands to spec on fritz ram tech page.
At the same time I pulled the drive-shaft to have new (grease-able) u-joints installed.
Therefore I had the transfer case in Neutral when all was done.
I had also adjusted the shift linkage slightly.
Sooo... I went to shift the transmission around a bit to get the fluid going and top up and, as you can imagine, I heard the parking pawl complain loudly. I must have shifted in and out of park 2-3 times (thinking I may have adjust the linkage poorly) before realizing I had the transfer case in Neutral. Well I know that's not too bright, so no need to let me know.

On my test drive the trans started by shifting fine but after a couple of miles the 1-2 shift especially started to feel wrong. Nothing extreme but I would describe the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts as follows:
From a stop 1-2 shifts VERY soon and feels as if you hit the brake slightly then grabs a bit hard. 2-3 pretty much the same feeling: slight loss of torque then slightly jolting engagement.

Well that was in California, it didn't feel too bad so I assumed my torque wrench was a bit off and backed of the front band ~1/8th of a turn.
During the drive it really started bothering me - by my reading the bands were probably fighting each other for a moment before shifting.

So in Cheyenne Wyoming I found a transmission shop. The owner test drove the truck, did not think it was too bad, but agreed that it would be good "peace of mind" to pull the pan and readjust.
Well he did things by "feel" so all he ended up adjusting was the front band (backed out one full turn). He did not think ATF +4 was worth the money so he refilled the trans with Dex3 and some additive "Lube guard." He also found some aluminum in the pan. That was NOT there when I changed the fluid and filter. He also gave me a sheet with band adjustment specs that were very different from those that I had used.

After that it shifted HORRIBLY - same symptoms times 5 - very jerky shifting.
When I got to NY state I dropped the pan, adjusted the bands to spec, filled with ATF+4 and test drove - better, but not much better than when I left CA. I drained and refilled the fluid one more time in case the Dex3 was giving me problems. Still about the same.

My current theory is that my bands were never the problem and that when I shifted the trans with the transfer case in N I sent some chunks into the wrong place. But where? I Have read about the governor solenoid - but nothing with my same symptoms. I am sorry this is so long but please let me know if you have any insight on what is going on. Automatic transmissions are like voodoo to me! Thank you very much!
John
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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John,

It sounds to me like your front band may be a bit too tight, causing it to grab sooner and release later. You should double-check its adjustment. Just as with engine valve lash, a little loose is better than too tight. Were the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts both OK before your pre-trip service?

Read this to help you understand how the shift timing is determined:

Chrysler Automatics 101, revised 08 Mar 2010

The parking pawl mistake was not good for the trans but certainly shouldn't kill it either. These trans use a good DACRON filter setup and any debris generated by the park pawl should not have entered the hydraulic system as long as the filter was installed correctly (the filter is on the suction side of the pump). By the way, the parking pawl and its associated parts are magnetic and should be on the pan magnet.

Aluminum in the pan is something I cannot explain from the description you wrote. It could come from several places, but not from either band or the drums they run on.

Art
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thank you for the response!
The 1-2 and 2-3 shifts seemed perfect to me before the service - although I have no dodge to compare to. I certainly had never noticed a torque loss then jolt when shifting before. I drive pretty easy, so I generally didn't "feel" the shifts much.
I will try adjusting the front band. The spec I used before trip was (8nm) front back 1 7/8 turns, rear 3turns (fritz ram tech page)
I have since found the service manual to give the same as 46re (only for 1996): font 2 7/8 turns rear 2 turns. This is what I last used, I probably have the front closer to 3 turns now. What would you suggest as a starting point? I suspect you could really tell me were you to drive it - but I have no good sense for what a "little' loose would be - perhaps 1/4 turn?
There was nothing to speak of on the magnet - where would aluminum usually come from in one of these transmissions?
If the band is too tight, would it shift any earlier?
I really appreciate the article - it would seem that the gov solenoid could cause the early shifts - but not the jolt.
By the way, I now also feel the downshift to 1st just as I almost stop. It comes as a small kick in the pants a couple of feet before a full stop. Also a new phenomenon.
thank you again
John
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Old 07-02-2011, 01:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrol22 View Post
Thank you for the response!
The 1-2 and 2-3 shifts seemed perfect to me before the service - although I have no dodge to compare to. I certainly had never noticed a torque loss then jolt when shifting before. I drive pretty easy, so I generally didn't "feel" the shifts much.
I will try adjusting the front band. The spec I used before trip was (8nm) front back 1 7/8 turns, rear 3turns (fritz ram tech page)
I have since found the service manual to give the same as 46re (only for 1996): font 2 7/8 turns rear 2 turns. This is what I last used, I probably have the front closer to 3 turns now. What would you suggest as a starting point? I suspect you could really tell me were you to drive it - but I have no good sense for what a "little' loose would be - perhaps 1/4 turn?
There was nothing to speak of on the magnet - where would aluminum usually come from in one of these transmissions?
If the band is too tight, would it shift any earlier?
I really appreciate the article - it would seem that the gov solenoid could cause the early shifts - but not the jolt.
By the way, I now also feel the downshift to 1st just as I almost stop. It comes as a small kick in the pants a couple of feet before a full stop. Also a new phenomenon.
thank you again
John
John,

I'll try to answer your questions in the order they were asked:

The fritz adjustment specs you referred to are right (1-7/8 and 3). When I rebuild a 47RH or 47RE transmission, I set the front band at 2 turns and the rear at 3 turns. The rear band needs that extra looseness as it is a double wrap band (42RH/RE has a double wrap rear band and a 46RH/RE has a single wrap rear band, so you should now better understand the difference in adjustment specs). If the band adjustment is too tight, it could drag on the drum creating excessive heat and wear. Additionally, a overly tight band could grab sooner and release later. Won't affect shift timing, but a huge affect on shift quality since its events are measured in milliseconds.

When I said a "little loose", I am talking about 1/4 turn or so. Keep in mind that that bands can wear over time, although they should wear at a slow rate.

Aluminum could come from any of the aluminum parts in the transmission. Hows that for an answer??? The only somewhat normal aluminum wear area I can think of off the top of my head is the overdrive piston retainer / rear support. That part really takes a beating if the truck is towed on the wheels for too long of a distance or too fast without the engine running (no lubrication). Aluminum could come from several other areas, but those would be more abnormal failure modes. One needs to see the particles to help determine where they are from - fine dust, thread chips, larger chunks - all are different indicators as well as their shape and surface finish.

Band(s) that is too tight would not really cause a change in shift timing, but more of a change in shift quality. The rear band is only applied while in manual low and reverse, so if it were too tight, it would be just dragging and trying to slow parts down. The front band is applied for second gear only. If it were too tight, it would be dragging in first gear creating heat. When the shift to second happens, there is no overlap (trans actually in more than one 'gear' for an instant) so it will shift into second probably fine but maybe a bit faster (not sooner, but faster). It is the shift from second to third that would suffer the most with shift quality since there IS overlap with that shift.

As I wrote in that article, shift timing is controlled by the balance between governor pressure, TV pressure (affected by the TV cable adjustment), and the force from the springs acting on the shift spools. With your 47RE transmission, there are different governor pressure 'maps' for different temperatures and transfer case modes (just like different air/fuel ratio maps for a fuel injected gas engine at different temperatures). That adds another whole degree of complications with the RE transmisisons. Just another reason why a mechanical guy like me prefers the mechanical 12V engines and RH transmissions. Anyways, there is a temperature sensor incorporated into the pressure transducer that provides a signal to the PCM so the PCM can decide which map of governor pressure vs MPH to use.

Some other recommendations:

Trans fluid selection and shift quality is more of an issue with the electronically controlled transmissions. I am fine with using good 'ol Dexron in my 727's and 47RH's, but follow the recommendations EXACTLY with a RE transmission. The friction coefficient has to be right on the money with an electronically controlled trans or shift quality will suffer.

My opinion of the Lube Gard products is that I think they do make a good product - but I still am not convinced any additive will ever fix a transmission in need of overhaul.

When adjusting the front band in the vehicle, I put a mark (permanent marker or paint pen) on one of the adjustment screw flats to help keep track of the number of turns. With the restricted access, it is easier to make an adjustment mistake. I use a small 5/16" combination wrench typically.

The TV pressure affects shift timing and will affect shift quality as well since it controls line pressure too. Make sure your TV cable is adjusted properly, moves freely without binding or sticking, and that the return spring is attached at the transmission end. If the TV lever on the trans were at a mid-throttle position, you would get later & harsher light upshifts and sooner and harsher downshifts at light throttle. The TV lever must move in a correct relation to the throttle position. It is possible something there (like the spring) got changed while adjusting the front band.

Art
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Old 07-02-2011, 02:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I sure appreciate the time you put into the response.
I am a bit bewildered, I felt foolish using band specs from the internet once I saw the two "official" sources: the first was a printout from what was, I think, A rebuild supplier (ATS?) the gave the 2 7/8 front 2 rear specifically for the 1996 47RE (went to your specs in 1997 and was different in 1995 as well)
Then, my service manual: that also states 2 7/8 front, 2 rear. It is a 1996 service manual.
I am certainly inclined to go back to your specs based on the fact that you know why they are so (whereas I just follow blindly) - but have you any explanation for why the 1996 gets singled out to a different spec?
I will say that now that I am not "test" driving per say - I am starting to doubt my own senses, It may be shifting properly now and I am thinking too much!
I am glad to hear that the difference in the shifting with DEX3 is exacerbated with the RE - I had trouble reconciling the fact that the fellow that adjusted the bands and put DEX3+lube guard in seemed to know these transmissions well - but the sent me off shifting like a teenager with a new stick shift!
Thank you again - by the way, do you recommend any additive just for longevity - my only technique is easy driving and frequent fluid change.
John
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Old 07-02-2011, 03:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrol22 View Post
I sure appreciate the time you put into the response.
I am a bit bewildered, I felt foolish using band specs from the internet once I saw the two "official" sources: the first was a printout from what was, I think, A rebuild supplier (ATS?) the gave the 2 7/8 front 2 rear specifically for the 1996 47RE (went to your specs in 1997 and was different in 1995 as well)
Then, my service manual: that also states 2 7/8 front, 2 rear. It is a 1996 service manual.
I am certainly inclined to go back to your specs based on the fact that you know why they are so (whereas I just follow blindly) - but have you any explanation for why the 1996 gets singled out to a different spec?
I will say that now that I am not "test" driving per say - I am starting to doubt my own senses, It may be shifting properly now and I am thinking too much!
I am glad to hear that the difference in the shifting with DEX3 is exacerbated with the RE - I had trouble reconciling the fact that the fellow that adjusted the bands and put DEX3+lube guard in seemed to know these transmissions well - but the sent me off shifting like a teenager with a new stick shift!
Thank you again - by the way, do you recommend any additive just for longevity - my only technique is easy driving and frequent fluid change.
John
John, you are welcome.

JoeG's fuel system write-up bailed out my backside when I bought my first 12V truck. It had so many fuel system issues the previous owner gave up on it. After reading that write-up and its thorough explanation of the fuel system, I had that truck running great after just one day of repairs I am just returning the favor.

My opinion on the difference in specs for the 1996 model year? This is speculation, but I used to write transmission service manuals at a previous job. Most people who write service manuals rarely (if ever) had grease under their fingernails, and mistakes sometimes pass right through the proofread process... Anyways, because the 1996 model year got a different transmission (RE instead of the previous RH), the service manual needed revision. The wrong spec was listed in the 1996 manual re-write and it was corrected with the 1997 and later manuals. End users like us don't get a notification of the error, if they even did send out any... Copies of an incorrect manual get made, and the bad information spreads. Just my opinion of a possible explanation.

I feel your 'technique' for longevity is better than any additive. Proper preventative maintenance (fluid changes at the recommended interval and proper fluid level) combined with easy driving (no lugging or towing stupid heavy overloads), and most important - attention to how the trans is performing - is better in my opinion than any magic in a bottle. I plow snow pretty hard with my truck, but I don't abuse the trans. While some additives may help, they only that - an additive, not a substitute. The additives I would never ever recommend are the leak fixers or seal conditioners.

Art
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Great info Art. Thanx
I'm going to momentarily hijack this thread & ask a question.
I've rebuilt my 47re & since the build, I'm experiencing 2-3 overlap. Trans now has 150 psi + line pressure, a modified BD VB with the GM solenoid, all billet servos, accumulator, 4.2 lever etc. So far I've installed a larger spring in the front servo, & it has helped, but it's still there. I have one more spring that has more tension in my collection to try. Am I right in thinking this is the right way to go, (2nd band release) by bleeding out that servo faster.??

liteweight
ps Band is adjusted as per your spec. it's a 96
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liteweight View Post
Great info Art. Thanx
I'm going to momentarily hijack this thread & ask a question.
I've rebuilt my 47re & since the build, I'm experiencing 2-3 overlap. Trans now has 150 psi + line pressure, a modified BD VB with the GM solenoid, all billet servos, accumulator, 4.2 lever etc. So far I've installed a larger spring in the front servo, & it has helped, but it's still there. I have one more spring that has more tension in my collection to try. Am I right in thinking this is the right way to go, (2nd band release) by bleeding out that servo faster.??

liteweight
ps Band is adjusted as per your spec. it's a 96
As you have discovered, increased line pressure affects the clutch and band engagements, and shift quality can suffer.

I remember TransGo's solution to the occasional 2-3 overlap (TF-2 for a 727) was to install an orifice cup plug into the passage that feeds the front clutch right where the valvebody meets the case. If I remember right, the orifice diameter was around 0.150" or so. If you can't locate one of those, you could make one out of a 1/8" pipe plug (hex socket style of course) drilled through.

The orifice restricts the flow rate slightly to slow the front clutch engagement. Once the clutch is fully engaged and the flow rate drops, it still is at full pressure (and torque capacity).

The problem with increasing the front servo release spring is that the additional spring force subtracts from the resulting apply force.

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Old 07-03-2011, 08:58 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I am a little slow on the take here but just to go back to your first response - You speculated that the band is too tight. Knowing I am set to these wrong specs - do you still think I should loosen up the front band a little? Assuming my torque wrench is not way off I would be at almost 3 turns on the front - as opposed to 1 7/8.
I will drop the pan again and loosen the rear one turn.
I would also like to add a separate question, I have always notice that in low rpm with OD off (in LU I think) there is tendency to hear a slight clanging (for lack of a better word) - very slight- but it sure seems related to LU in 3rd.
Thank you and sorry for the delay in absorption!
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Art
I am a little slow on the take here but just to go back to your first response - You speculated that the band is too tight. Knowing I am set to these wrong specs - do you still think I should loosen up the front band a little? Assuming my torque wrench is not way off I would be at almost 3 turns on the front - as opposed to 1 7/8.
I will drop the pan again and loosen the rear one turn.
I would also like to add a separate question, I have always notice that in low rpm with OD off (in LU I think) there is tendency to hear a slight clanging (for lack of a better word) - very slight- but it sure seems related to LU in 3rd.
Thank you and sorry for the delay in absorption!
No need to apologize. Sometimes I can be slow to absorb too...

I would drop the pan to correct the rear band adjustment and set the front band to the recommended spec as well. Then you are back at the right starting point.

If the rear band is dragging it could still affect shifts that it is not involved directly with, since the imposed drag on the rear planetary carrier changes the inertia and speeds. Again, the rear band is applied only in manual low and reverse. Any other gear it needs to be completely released.

As far as the noise in 3rd and LU, I have no idea without hearing it in person. Perhaps you can tell more about where the noise seems to be coming from and what conditions affect the noise (accelerating, coasting, decelerating, 2WD, 4WD, loaded, empty, etc...). There is also the possibility it is just a torsional vibration rattle (a locked converter doesn't absorb those torsionals) and that condition is the slowest engine RPM that LU is allowed (low engine RPM typically means more torsional activity). A good example of this is the noise made when lugging a stick shift vehicle down in high gear with throttle. Torsional vibrations are essentially parts rotating at an eneven speed - accelerating and decelerating several times per revolution. Typically they are caused by the engine firing pulses, but other things like universal joints can cause them as well.

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Old 07-03-2011, 12:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Do you mind if I sidetrack your thread some for the above issue I'm experiencing with mine?

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Old 07-03-2011, 01:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Liteweight - heck no I don't mind!

Art, I shouldn't have bothered with the noise question - too vague. It is probably a torsional vibration rattle - I was only confused by the fact that it never seemed to be in OD LU, just 3rdLU. The conditions are under load-low RPM. A hill for example where it is questionable whether it should still be in LU. I pretty much was fishing for something that is common or characteristic because you seem so familiar. If there is no common 3rd LU noise etc - By no means would I expect you to diagnose over a forum!
I will post, if you don't mind, how it feels after resetting to proper spec. I'll just say 2 turns for the front to er on the loose side. I dislike how slowly the bands ramp up on the torque wrench! unlike tightening a normal bolt where you may go from 0 in lbs to 150 in lbs a quarter turn - The bands make me feel like any funny business with the wrench can cost upwards of half a turn.
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